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Old 08-18-2012, 09:50 AM   #12
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
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Re: Ueshiba's Aikido?

Let me make sure I understand before I continue too much further in the conversation. When you mention Ueshiba Aikido as the subject of this thread, are you, or are you NOT referring to the defintiion and context that Mark Murray discusses it?

I think we first must establish this as a common ground.

I am making the assumption you are. and I will frame my conversation in that context unless I hear otherwise from you.

So, I fail to see how Mark's use of the term Ueshiba Aikido does any harm at all, no more than any other use of words that have come to mean a particular context or paradigm. It may not be words that I choose to call it, but when Mark uses it, I understand what Mark means. It means he does not have to go back and provide the complete background, philosophy, context etc. He can simply say "Ueshiba Aikido".

Again, not my choice of words and if Mark had opened a similar thread that was the anti-thesis of this thread that stated I don't think anyone else but me or who does what I do should use the phrase Ueshiba aikido, then I'd have posted the same thing...it is a troll argument simply designed to create emotion or argument for the sake of argument.

However, in my reading of Mark's post, I don't really find that other than his stated belief that he believes he is doing the core of what he feel Ueshiba wanted us to focus on with respect to what was important in aikido. He contends that direct focus on the spiritual aspects and or the technical curriculum to be misguided and wrong, and therefore, he holds that he is doing Ueshiba Aikido.

Again, not my choice of words nor my fight.

Okay, I will agree with you if you care about having a discussion then don't use words that will emotionally charge people. I agree with that, we need to probably stay away from labels to a degree except when they serve to simplify or make our conversation flow better. You have made that point.

is this the intent of starting this thread...to simply state "I wish we could stay away from labels and languaging that does not allow us to engage in a meaningful discussion?"

I think all here would agree with that. No need to say a whole lot more IMO on the subject if that is the intent of the thread.

So, what do you propose in order to do that? Reach a common understanding?

You've refused to get on the mat with anyone in that "other camp". They have offered many times. So I have to wonder do you really care to "seek to understand" or are you simply trying to be understood?

If you look back to, oh around 2003 or 2004 when Dan and Mike Sigman started posting here, you will find that I engaged these guys pretty hard and called "BS" on much of what they were professing to know. I felt like "who are these guys to come into OUR community and tell an entire institution that what they are doing is wrong." That is what I heard...not what was being said.

However, I took them up on the invite at the insistence of many people I respected in the Aikido community. I've been on the mat with just about all of the usuals with the exception of Dan. In all cases, I found that what they had to offer was what they said. They offered clear and concise methodology and were able to show what they did, why it worked, and how to train it.

Now, keep in mind, I didn't become an acolyte. I have other priorities, other focuses...and honestly I don't share many of the same beliefs about value or focus. I think they represent a segment of the bigger picture, albeit an important one.

However, I keep my comments to myself and don't openly criticize. Why? because I reached the conclusion that what they had to offer is very valuable to the community and that the MINOR quibbles I had were based mainly on priorities and personalities..two things I have learned in my years of training to set aside and simply have an open mind.

I also hold that in the end, what I concentrate on may be he wrong thing...I believe it is very well possible that I will look back at the development of what guys like Mark Murray have done and say...wow, I really should have spent more time doing what you are doing.

However, what I do works for me right now. However, I also don't want to create such a barrier with my ego on creating divisiveness that I will box myself in, or will not be welcome in the future.

I have found that over time, my opinions and focuses change as I grow in budo. thus, I have found looking to unify serves me better than trying to divide.

Right now, personally, I am working on developing a thesis on martial methodology to tie together in one model all the things and how they relate using non-emotional, non-cultural, western "clinical" terminology that will kinda put things together and how they relate. My intent is to develop a framework that will allow people to get together and say "yeah, this is what we are doing and where it fits in on the framework". if we agree on a common framework, then we can debate about priorities and methods of training in a constructive manner.

So, yeah, I agree that much of what is discussed here using labels such as Ueshiba's aikido stirs emotion and cause irrational statements...if that is your intent. I think it is much different to say, "I believe that Ueshiba wanted us to focus on these aspects of training"...which I really think is what Mark says in a very ferverent manner...cause that is what he believes.

I have no issues with that. I only see him come out and discuss when someone says "yeah we do that", in the internal strength threads and he feels they are off base.

What I have observed is that there are folks here that geniunely want to discuss IS/IT training. I have found that many and yes, I believe you do this, attempt to discuss threads for some reason without an understanding, or even an attempt to understand what is going on. I then see the IS/IT guys, who for the most part, CONTINUE to offer information, explanation, and support...even amongst all the dribble of non-sense and sidebar discussions. So, I appreciate that they STILL continue to engage, as if you haven't noticed...we don't have many Shihan level traditional AIkido guys at the 7th Dan level talking to us here.

So, if you want to start a thread on the spiritual aspects of aikido and the significance of it and methodologies to train it...I have no issues with that.

If you want to discuss IT/IS stuff do that.

however if...OVER TIME....you continue the SAME level of discourse, you refuse to accept invitations, attempt to really understand what is going on and being said, and then it becomes RINSE, WASH, REPEAT...yes, then I believe that you are simply trolling.

Not sure why this continues here. I think it could be that individuals feel threatened by "outsiders" or non-hakama wearing guys coming in and discounting years of "training". It could be they want attention and want to feel special, or do not want the world they have built up around lies to crumble...or they simply want attention. Not sure what the reason or motivation is.

however, I fail to see in all cases how it furthers growth or understanding.

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