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Old 08-19-2008, 11:56 AM   #10
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

Jonathan Hay wrote: View Post
Whether it was a group effort or a single person, the discovery or development of internal power at the very beginning was not taught by a teacher. Inasmuch as this is true, it is not impossible, then, to repeat this feat. That was my point.
So, you're saying that you can, in one lifetime, repeat what a group or groups of people have done over many lifetimes?

If not, then it does matter whether it was a group effort and how long it took. Since neither of us knows for sure, it's a moot point. Or it would seem. However, if it was an individual within a lifetime, then by that very nature, many, many people in the martial arts would have "rediscovered" it in their 20+ year career.

Since that hasn't happened (in essence, there have been no greats reproduced. Unless you know of someone of Shioda, Tomiki, or Tohei caliber), it's much more plausible to view it historically as something other than one individual in one lifetime.

Jonathan Hay wrote: View Post
Your above remarks and question are completely off my point. I made no comment on what it would be like to be unable to push someone over. I'm sure it is, as you say, "disconcerting."

I've never suggested otherwise. What does this have to do with my original comment?
It would seem that my view of "aiki" is certainly different than yours. Otherwise I dont' think your comments of confusion wouldn't have been made.

Jonathan Hay wrote: View Post
That's nice. I remain unconvinced, however, that direct teaching is absolutely necessary. That may have been your experience, but that doesn't mean it is necessarily every one else's. Figuring out aiki stuff can be aided in a multitude of ways these days: books, videos, weekend seminars, careful thought and experimentation. Yes, I'm sure its really cool and instructive to actually feel well-developed aiki ability, but for those who do not have ready access to such ability it is the other means upon which they will have to rely. I think it is untrue that such teacher-less folk will garner nothing positive from their efforts.
Granted, it is my experience. And, granted, someone, somewhere could possibly figure it out without a teacher. Personally, I'd say the chances of that are like winning the Powerball jackpot lottery, getting struck twice by lightning, and having a meteor hit you -- all at the same time. But, that's just my opinion. It's also my opinion that you won't get it from books, videos, seminars, thought, or experimentation -- until you get firsthand training experience in it.

But then again, Matt wanted some answers from people and I gave mine. If you think that my posts and answers sound way out of touch, then I would say that your definition of "aiki" and mine are not the same in any way, shape, or form. So, if that's the case, then when dealing with "aiki" from the "IMA" people, you might want to take a step back, throw out all preconceived ideas on what you know about "aiki", and take a good, hard look at what people are saying and doing.

What was Ueshiba supposed to have said when Tenryu couldn't push him over? I knew the secret of aiki. In a push test, the secret of aiki kept Ueshiba solid. Ueshiba's small 5 foot frame versus Tenryu's large 6 foot frame. So, we go back to the same question -- can you withstand a push? Because to do so requires the secret of aiki. No secret of aiki, then how are you doing "aikido"?
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