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Old 03-29-2011, 07:11 PM   #70
Dojo: Aikibodo
Location: Arcata CA
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 150
Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

h2 from the oildrum:

zurisee, any discussion by a pro nuke person MUST avoid the core issues of future stewardship, it is precisely because this issue must be avoided that they raise a non-stop stream of straw men, each more ludicrous from a logical point of view than the last, and each almost trivially easy to see through with just beginner level logic, and the facts you can find at TOD.

However, consider this benefit: by for example trying to say coal makes CO2 which is worse, you have in fact gotten them to admit that coal power generation is also unsafe and bad, and it's actually quite difficult to get corporations or entrenched government bureaucracies to admit that anything is bad in their sphere, so that's actually substantial, but it points to how weak their arguments are, if they had stronger arguments, they wouldn't need to admit all the negatives of the options. I take some comfort in noting this fact.

Cars are of course major CO2 emitters as well, and are very new, we do not 'need' cars at all to thrive and have a great life, yet the example is tossed out of all the car deaths. I totally agree with this concern, dump all the cars now, that would be a great way to start fixing the problem. Cars are toxic on every level, including the disposal of their toxic wastes, which we tend to send offshore, or to Mexico. So I'm glad to see pro nuke people agreeing that our society is filled with dangerous, toxic things, which we need to also correct and eliminate.

The end of oil is of course the solution, since mankind decided to ignore the real solutions, now man has to wait for the solution to be imposed top down, non-negotiably.

I am glad to see this mention of the discounting of the future, which takes on a nearly pathological character in such discussions. No, strike that, it's not nearly pathological, it's fully pathological.

The growth based system we have generated has no answers, so of course it will flail desperately and pollute, destroy, and devastate to its maximum potential before it loses its ability to do so.

When you consider that we maintain that we 'need' nuclear power only to generate a small fraction of the energy we waste daily it is painfully obvious that we do not in fact need it at all, though it is possible that the system it depends on needs it, I'm not sure what the breaking points are when the growth fuel of energy the industrial system depends on is reduced on absolute terms, not raised. My guess is they are unable to even conceptualize this reality, and so are frantically trying to negotiate the non-negotiable, at each step of the process making the long term outcome that much worse. I am impressed however by how weak the arguments are, it leads me to believe that their actual political situation may be correspondingly weak.

I am not really interested in watching such types flounder around trying to paint themselves a picture where growth and ecosystem destruction are the price of progress, so called (perversely), to be honest, what interests me more is seeing how the actual people who will solve these issues begin to evolve the understandings and world views that will help take us out of this pit we have dug ourselves.

I'm interested in the person who has already scoped out the sides of the pit, has found some possible trails, and has assembled what they need to try to make their way out, which will have to be a group effort, since humans are social animals, that's a strength. Not loner survivalist types, who just seem set on building a compound at the pits floor, stocking it with provisions, then trying to hold against the earthquakes and landslides that are bound to come and bury them in the end.
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