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Old 01-28-2011, 04:13 AM   #150
Lorel Latorilla
Location: Osaka
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 311
Japan
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

If Chris wants David Orange to stop making fun of him, he needs to stop inviting insults. Dude is just asking for it. He asks people some questions, people clearly answer it, and yet he accuses them of circular reasoning and suggesting other insulting things it is like 'talking to people who are on a mission of faith'. How can you engage someone like that in a 'logical' discussion?

Clarity, objectivity, patience, and logic are not seen in Chris's posts.

1) Clarity--he doesn't know what he's talking about. The IP/Aiki guys are claiming they are doing something different, and have outlined in many posts what is occurring in their bodies, not in a mystical magical manner, but in a real physical manner. Some (like Tim Fong) have even described the phenomena in anatomical terms. Even when people here have demonstrated (in a physical level) that what they're doing is different from what Chris is doing, he still stubbornly insists that what he's doing encompasses the bodyskills that we talk about here.

2) Objectivity--he has no objectivity, but only speculation. He hasn't met Ark, Dan, or Mike. Therefore, he has no grounds to evaluate what they do. Martial arts is not a philosophical, dialectical thing--truth in martial arts is achieved on the mat. David calling Chris a chicken seems like an accurate statement--I mean why would you be afraid of meeting Dan? What do you have to lose besides your own cherished preconceptions/beliefs about martial arts? Even if you find out he sucks, the man will buy you dinner for crying out loud.

3) Patience--he fails to engage people's points. Hunter answered his questions, and it seemed as though Chris purposely overlooked them. If you want to engage people in a 'logical discussion', you have to engage the points they make, and not accuse them of 'circular reasoning' or suggesting the are 'fanatics'.

4) Logic--no logic either. For instance, he makes an analogue to David Blaine, suggesting that IP guys could be tricksters. Just as David Blaine takes control of logistics to bring about magical acts, he's suggesting that the IP guys do the same by not putting out videos and have tightly controlled seminars, and they do all this to facilitate an environment where mental suggestion is easily achieved. Sure that's logical, but the premises are clearly false. For one, Ark has a lot of videos out and has DVDS. Same with Mike. Secondly, I'm thinking you don't even have to go to seminars as you can do a private with Ark or you can even meet up with Dan, buy him dinner and a beer and then he will show you--I believe Dan met Mark Murray on his own, outside a seminar. There's also a open door policy in each cases--I'm sure Ark would be willing to spar with you, and Dan of course does that for fun. If you think it's all mental suggestion, I suggest you spar Dan or Ark. Or if that's too rough, I suggest you go at it on a freestyle stand-up grappling thing, since that's your range. If they can't throw you or you can throw them, then you can call bullshit on them..no mental suggestion shit here, just sheer physicality. In any case, comparing them to magicians is dishonest. Moreover, asking for video and then interpreting it based on your understanding and saying that that is what is actually happening is circular reasoning itself--you saying "this is what's happening, therefore is true" refers to its own validity. This stuff is more scientific than it is philosophical or magical. If you want to test your theory, your interpretation, you have to experiment, and cross-reference. In this case, if you think your interpretation encompasses what's going in the internal stuff, then you'll have to check with the guys who're saying something different. By meeting with these people, you will see if your interpretation/hypothesis holds true in reality, and see whether it trumps the other 'interpretations' out there. You saying "I can do what they do! But here is how I do it,and it's right, and they're wrong" is straight up intellectually dishonest.

It is for these reasons that people cannot take you seriously and discussion spirals into ridicule. If you want us to have a discussion with you, take the advice of your friend Michael Varin and start approaching discussion from the foundation of these 4 principals. People are making fun of you because your skepticism is dishonest. Skepticism can be good, but only if it is honest.

P.S.--Chris, Ark has been doing bodyskill for only 15 years I think. He started off with Tai Chi when he was 16, but it wasn't until his late 20's and early 30's that he started training this stuff seriously. It's not that far off from your 10 + years of aikido and training with Tim Cartmell.

P.P.S.--I don't think you are using the word 'faith' here correctly. 'Blind faith' which is what atheists like to pejoratively describe Christians and other religionists describes only an unchecked belief system that some Christians and religionists work to protect for fear of being wrong. In that case, 'working on faith' or 'working on blind faith' is bad. But 'true working on faith' is on some warrior shit. You essentially put your beliefs out there (whether it is beliefs in religion, in politics, in martial arts, in philosophy, etc.) and allow reality to burn down your beliefs. And it's called 'faith' because you have faith that the truth will stand up over the ashes that was once your fortresses of belief. In that case Chris, I implore you to get out there, allow reality to burn down the beliefs you cherish, and find the truth in martial arts. The worst that can happen is that you lose all beliefs...even then, you exchange that for the truth. The best thing that can happen is that you are correct, and that your interpretation is reality and from there, you will have the authority to call IP guys magicians and all that stuff. I have no problem with making fun and ridiculing charlatans and magicians, so if you were to find out that you were correct all along, I'd join you in the laughter and in the ridicule.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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