But what does Mary mean exactly in light of Ron's recent explanations?
doctrine of least possible harm:
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Ron Ragusa wrote:
Walk away when that is an option,
Converse when walking is no longer an option,
Avoid when conversing is no longer an option,
Immobilize when avoidance is no longer an option,
Incapacitate when immobilization is no longer an option,
Kill when incapacitation is no longer an option.
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Then I said
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the last few lines of your doctrine seem to be at odds with the premise of the thread.
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And the reply was basically:
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Ron Ragusa wrote:
Not really. In addition to her Aikido training, Mary developed and taught a practical self defense course for 15 years. Her self defense ideas grew out of her Aikido training; the techniques she taught did not. They were practical no nonsense techniques that could be employed when other methods failed.
...our Aikido training does not involve fighting.
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I can certainly buy that some highly skilled aikidoka with deep internal skills and tremendous experience can do all of the levels you listed in your doctrine of least possible harm without "fighting" except the last one.
I see an obvious contradiction in terms of killing an attacker without "fighting". Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I have been looking at this from every angle I could for a while now trying to employ lateral thinking to reconcile this contradiction with some deeper truth(s).
If I understand your answer, Mary would kill the person she could not incapacitate - if she were using "aikido" techniques - by instead using her "other" practical no nonsense techniques that could be employed when other methods failed.
Are you saying that in that case she
would be fighting, but she would not be using her "aikido" techniques at that point? So basically when it gets to "fighting" she is no longer doing "aikido". That still seems incongruous with what seems to be her stated and implied principles. For example:
Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote:
Fight does not work at all in Aikido.
fighting and Aikido...it seems like another planet.
train in Aikido "to not fight"
Let's talk about how we don't find any fighting in Aikido.
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Or another possibility:
Are you saying that since her ideas for self defense grew out of her aikido training, that she would employ her "other" practical no nonsense techniques in such a way that she would kill the person
without fighting?
If so; HOW? The only answers I can come up with are dishonest and/or unrealistic. For example:
a) playing with semantics - like, well I would kill this person who was skillfully trying to kill me, but I'd do it without "the mind of fighting". To me that amounts to hand waving and I would consider it a dishonest answer until someone is willing and able to convince me otherwise.
b) you manage to accidentally kill the person - like in a pink panther movie. But then how are you training to accidentally do that - and teaching your students to accidentally kill skillful attackers. I think it is funny, but unrealistic.
I actually don't mean to back you into a corner here. I just cannot follow what this thread is truly about.
Rob