What a chaos!
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Jon Reading wrote:
1. There exists in greater number occasions when yudansha do not know what they are doing and their direction is in-congruent to the instruction.
2. There exists in greater number occasions when mudansha have a technical knowledge that exceeds the yudansha with whom they are training.
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I think this is a very accurate description of the whole problem and it definitely understands the essence of this post. l would only add : 3. When "yudansha do not know what they are doing", it very often implies that they cannot work with aiki in general or at least in the specific technique.
Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote:
Yeah. Given a choice between personally looking bad and injuring my partner, I'm willing to look bad every single time.
Katherine
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I agree with Jon. It is not an either/or situation. They way you put it sound like for it (aiki) to work it must generate injury.
Quote:
Jon Reading wrote:
I deal with a range of visitors so I will go with poorly attacking as legitimately poor body management choices, not stylistic differences. For the record, I still include myself as making the occasional poor body management decision.
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I
consciously do not make poor body management choices. I expect from a yudansha to be able to demonstrate the technique (at least) decently.
Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote:
The whole thread started with the experiences of a person who was unimpressed with aikido because the person he was working with failed to handle his attack successfully.
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That is incorrect.
a) I never said or implied that I am unimpressed with Aikido.
b) There are many factors why I believe that Aikido education has many problems. A view that is shared by many people - even very advanced ones. (Since there is a tendency to demean my arguments just because of my rank, without knowing anything else about me..).
Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote:
So yes, that particular individual did "look bad," the OP did NOT understand this as part of the learning process, and the effect was that aikido as a whole was viewed negatively.
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There is no need to speak on my behalf regarding what I do or do not understand. My low rank in Aikido does not automatically mean that I hold a low rank in intelligence..
The learning process is that the yudansha
should be able to demonstrate things for mudansha. The other away around could happen (why the hell shouldn't we be open to learn anything from anyone) but this is not a requirement from mudansha (to teach yudansha).
Quote:
Jon Reading wrote:
...You have now created a illustration that implies a new student cannot possibly understand the wonders of aiki. If I am a newbie, and I am doing things wrong and I cannot possibly understand the wonders of aiki, why would I possibly train aikido? Hopefully, I don't have all that baggage from another art because that'll really screw me up...
I don't care if the sun in our eyes, a dog that ate our homework or we're touching an elephant's... or any of a number of excuses for why we cannot show somebody what it is that we do. The unspoken statement here that I am trying not to verbalize is that we are covering for our own inadequacies when we make excuses for why our stuff doesn't work. After all, aren't our waza supposed to be demonstrations of aiki? Aren't these the techniques that we line up when we want to show someone what is aikido?
I am saddened that someone could not show aiki to a new student. I am saddened that we sit around and "hrumf" about all the different reasons that a new student was screwing things up. I am saddened by the excuses and the next times and the whatifs that all will be our next show of aikido...
I see lots of fingers pointed in other directions about why we cannot do aikido. And we wonder why someone from outside is skeptical about if our stuff works.
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This is exactly my viewpoint.
Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote:
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If not, how should the student interpret my failure? Aikido is useless? I'm incompetent? Those seem to be the OP's responses to the situation he encountered. Or was he presenting an attack that fell outside of the paradigm being examined in that particular exercise? I think this question has a variety of answers, and it's impossible to say which applies without more information than has been offered in this thread.
Katherine
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Not true. I know exactly why the specific technique mentioned did not work for the yudansha. It has nothing to do with Aikido in general and it has nothing to do with me.
It IS true thought that I have the opinion that different educational tools would most probably eliminate the above mentioned problems that have to do with non-existent aiki, techniques not working and yudansha being in lower level that mudansha.
I don't want to change Aikido (or ever considered that silly idea) but I do have the ability to access its educational workflow and also to be very aware that its teaching is very far from its original source (o sensei's aikido). There are open minded individuals - who are also open minded in their everyday life (i.e. evolving, DO, the way - you know...) who can bring back to life, or at least point out very clearly the core elements of this work, but in my understanding these are few. And I am not talking about techniques, I am talking about the essence.
Quote:
Jon Reading wrote:
I think there is considerable disagreement about what is a demonstration of aiki. And I have been using that term somewhat nebulously myself to simply represent when we show someone "what it is that we do". I think that runs us into trouble when we mistake was it is that we do, for what we think we can do, with what we pretend we do.
I think you have laid out to some degree what all of us are face, the reality that we are not perfect. I think the frustration from the OP was not that he expects us to be perfect, but that he held his yudansha to an expectation that was not consistent with their ability. Maybe his expectation was unreal, maybe the yudansha's ability was sub-average. I would like to think prospective students are setting a high bar for us, but this issue seems to be a regular occurrence with new students.
When we meet these gaps of expectation, I think part of what we say needs to be considerate of the unspoken questions it will raise. I think there is nothing wrong with challenging unreal expectations, but I think it is also important to control how we let somehow interpret a "failure." It happens. A series of failures? Well, that is a little different.
For me, aiki happens before and during (and after) technique. It is a foreign concept to me that I cannot practice aiki with anyone; I believe I can practice aiki with everyone. Even if there is a risk of injury I only need to stop prior to the technique - I would have still needed to express aiki as part of my training. It has happened that someone can give me energy that I cannot overcome, but that works to my advantage because that means she knows what I am doing. Only on the rarest occasion will you get someone who is a phenomenon who is unaware of what they are doing as to not appreciate what you are doing.
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Exactly.
I know my post has raised many questions, not so easily answered, but I am surprised how quickly people are getting defensive and ready to put some issues "under the carpet", avoiding them like they do not exist. Did you ever believe that you found the perfect martial art in aikido? Am I, and people like me, ruining an illusion for you? I want to believe that is not the case.
First things first:
1. I claimed that for self defence issues, Aikido is problematic. Obviously this is an over generalisation BUT if you consider that the average (muay thai, kung fu, krav maga, boxing, kick boxing, etc) person, can learn in 6 months to a year EFFECTIVE self defence, then you can see what my point is.
Again, let's not speak about the "masters" etc. It is a common knowledge that Aikido is one of the most difficult martial arts to learn properly - that is effectively.
Do I like it - yes. Do I believe it can help me defend myself after 1 year of training?
Yes - if we are talking about a totally drunk person coming at me,
Possibly - if the attacker is inexperienced and not bigger than me,
No - if the guy is bigger than me,
No - if the guy is experienced in other martial arts, especially the "hard" ones.
So there goes that.
2. Regarding the educational tools, well I am not going to go much into that, but I think there are more effective ways to apply and test what has been transmitted. I have experience from other systems and it works (the educational method). I know that there are differences between dojos, but the general practice is more or less the same. I do not like that. I think it is extremely slow, I think it does not make for a good reality check, I think it creates problems in understanding even the most basic - and core - elements of aikido, like the aiki (what is it, when is it, who has it, who doesn't, etc). And I am not talking about a conceptual understanding. I am talking about knowledge. A thorough understanding of these concepts experientially. And yes, I would like to see that available to people from day 1.
3. Regarding the atemi. This is probably where I didn't express myself very well, although some understood very well the essence of what I wanted to say. Which brings us back to point number 1.
Yes if I am 3,4,5 dan and above I guess the atemi takes a different meaning than when I am trying to defend myself at 4th kuy level. And yes, with the same amount of practice and dedication in another hard system, I would be much more effective. Do I want to kick bags and partners all day? No. Do I believe in the "DO" of Aikido? Well, conceptually/ philosophically -yes, but you can see so much pretentiousness in some dojos that makes you wonder who is exactly seriously thinking of it and applying it in their everyday life. But that is for another thread...
It is much better to keep an open mind and see the negatives as such and deal with them, everyone in their own way. Denying them does not help neither ourselves nor aikido in general.
Peace
