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Dan Harden wrote:
The two diagrams that are shown in your example; mine and the one Mike nabbed from Mantac Chia's book are different.
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That's true. Mantak Chia's drawing is a good one of the front-view of the standard muscle-tendon channels/connections. If someone wants each of the muscle-tendon channels they can be found in a number of sources (like in Deadman) because this is the standard model of how the body movement and connections work. It's very detailed (the working) and the relationships are how the ki/kokyu strength works, down to the finest detail.
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My model comes from a training model used in DR for paired waza and solo training.
Note* I left out the connection across the chest and back (as well as several other connections) as that drawing was specific to a discussed example on the doku and not meant to convey all details. (See more on the upper cross below)
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OK, so you're acknowledging pretty much what I said, then. Basically, what I said was that the "X" model won't go very far, yet I notice a number of people have begun using it as the theory basic from which "spiralling" evolves; my comment was that the "X" theory does not really explain how spiralling works in the body so before things go too far, people should discuss the finer points of "how to" or they're going to run into problems down the road. Don't get me wrong.... as I've noted before even coarse jin skills are better than none and along the same lines a "coarse" approach to some "spiralling" is fine, too, but ultimately why not save problems and get the theory right for all future understanding and progress? Since the theory was worked out in such detail so many centuries ago and it's the same gold-standard that Ueshiba draws some of his douka from, why not be clearer about the difference between a training method and the way the spiralling, etc., actually work in conjunction with the forces of ki/kokyu/qi/jin?
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As for that post discussing the doku
Hidden in Plain site-revisited
The same paths lead to the use of spiral energy in the body in paired and solo training. It is only a part of a more complicated training involving uses from even a simple self-rotation, to spiral energy from feet to groin to waist to spine to hand along two different lines that also converge differently front and back. It is important to know what is connected to what and what to move to draw-in on and push against and engage, so you don't end up vulnerable with guys that know what you're doing and who will toss you due to the way you train.. I rarely talk about this as well- but there are pictures that display one exercise to specifically do this in DR. It is expressed in photos that Takeda, Hisa, and Ueshiba all curiously decided to "pose in." They are standing there in an exercise form putting the spiral paths -in your face. One of which will be appearing in Ellis new book.
The internet gadflies, in spite of their incessant assertions, and guesses really don't know much of anything about the existence of that training model in DR, nor of moving from the waist to use spiral energy -albeit in a more simplistic manner in various Koryu weapons either.
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I don't claim to know anything about DR training methods and I frankly don't care all that much. Why? Because if good DR (or any other koryu or jujutsu derivative) really uses the basic ki-strength forces (and the complexities that follow) then ultimately DR *must* conform with the traditional movement and logic of qi/ki/jin/kokyu that everyone else uses. It's just a matter of how purely and completely they use these things. When you start talking about "spiralling", ultimately you're forced by the logic to go toward six-harmonies movement and the diagrams similar to the one I used. So you appear to be agreeing with me (albeit disagreeably); if you wanted to use your "training model" to talk about "spiralling", I was simply asking you to describe how it works. Since it's only a "training model" rather than a complete method for "spiralling", it's a good thing I brought it up, eh? Some people were misunderstanding.
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I don't really care much at all about this crap. I was initially hesitant to share, but over time I thought it might be a fair exchange of information. What initially sounded great-has really turned into more ego and protectionism of a different order, now with paying study groups and ranking and private forums and the building of "ditto" heads and more typical Budo divisiveness. I was hoping for better.
Note* I have never mentioned this except VERY recently and only do so for clarity because I am beginning to see some attempts at revisionist history going on here to boost certain agendas being established recently.
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Dan, go back and look at all the posts I've made with detailed explanations, descriptions, and diagrams on just AikiWeb. Look at the posts where I've asked you direct and friendly questions about assertions you've made and you've simply bailed. I'm not bothering to ask you how the "X" theory of motion works as you get into more complex motion because you've indicated now that you agree with the point I was making. I think by clarifying that point you're going to save some followers of the "Dan Harden Method" some time in the future. And isn't that the best thing to do?
Regards,
Mike