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Old 07-27-2010, 06:59 PM   #41
Gorgeous George
Join Date: Sep 2009
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Re: Aikido: more than a martial art?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
No doubt but in how many self defence situations do you really need to break someones wrist or elbow?

I've never heard that. My point about Judo is that by being more competative they've ended up with an art which is kinder than the art that refuses to compete because it fosters an uncompassionate spirit. Irony?

Great then someone still has to explain how kote gaeshi, a staple of Jujutsu for 1000+ years suddenly becomes a way of teaching philosophy and why that philosophy which we're informed is at the heart of Aikido practice, is never taught.
'how often...'?

Well, the way I interpret aikido training (the strikes in particular, such as shomen-uchi, and tsuki) is that you are preparing yourself for a worst-case scenario: in training, somebody tsukis, or delivers shomen-uchi, with an empty hand - but the basis of those strikes is the pre-occupation with defence against weapons: knives, broken bottles maybe, etc...

It's the same thing with irimi, multiple opponents, etc. - it's derived from a need to end encounters, in which you are in a really bad position, as soon as possible, with the minimum energy expended. This is also why the pins in aikido are done with the minimum contact, as opposed to using your full body as you would in a one-on-one fight in the UFC or something: so that you can stay mobile and aware of your surroundings/other people.
From what little I know of karate, and it's 'one strike, one kill' ethos, this seems to have developed for a similar need to deal with situations quickly.

But to answer what I think you meant by your question: I think that if you can control someone in order to apply kote-gaeshi, then you can either 'safely' apply it, so that they go down without any injury; or you can safely apply another technique to safely immobilise them.
I mean, I think that whenever I train with a senior grade - particularly fifth dans - they can apply kote-gaeshi so quickly that I haven't caught up yet, and so my wrist is broken; they don't, but they still control me very easily, and I am still subdued.

I guess your response has to be commensurate with the attack - as the law states - i.e., if you break someone's neck for trying to grab your arm and tell you you dropped something, you've over-reacted; if you break someone's arm because they're trying to stab you to death, then that's fine.

Regards judo: my knowledge of it is very limited, so I apologise to anyone who does it if I am mistaken about anything....
My teacher - who did judo for ten years - told me the throws have the aim of landing people on their heads; plus:

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question...4113130AABMN2w

'One of my first instructors had studied Judo. He would always tell us that there were two kinds of judo throws. Those that were for competition, and those designed to drop the opponent/attacker on his head or neck.'

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11872

It seems that they've eliminated a lot of techniques in order to be able to have competitions, yes (like you need to know how to breakfall in order to do aikido: there's no point in injuring your partners, because you'll have no-one to trrain with) - but then, they're competing with each other, so I don't know how compassionate that is.
I'm not sure, but I think there's sport judo, and martial art judo...

Is judo really kinder than aikido?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YOKtMsF5ds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dzr0Hx8H_Wg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZcTycNBKvY

I've also seen a clip where a guy was being thrown in the olympics, and because the other guy only wins if he lands on his back or whatever, he put his arm out to try and forestall this; his arm ended up breaking, though, like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6p3FIWKEBI

EDIT: Here's the clip -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE1JIyAcFIo

In that sense, anyway, judo is a sport, and not a martial art: as I once heard a great aikidoka say: 'In judo there are rules; in aikido - as in real fights - there are not' - or words to that effect.

I was recently talking to someone who used to train in taekwondo: he said he quit because he was sick of hearing parents shouting encouragement to their child while they were having competition: 'Kick him in the head!' etc.

I don't know: i've not got the statistics, but i'm under the impression that injuries in (sport) judo are a lot more common - and serious - than in aikido.

'kote-gaeshi...'

- Well...after you apply kote-gaeshi in aikido, and uke is subdued, you don't practice ending that person's life, do you? I mean, I don't.
So you're not applying it in order to kill another; you aren't killing someone who is no threat to you - who you have pinned.
Like when you move circularly, or apply a joint lock - you are moving naturally, like in yoga; so you're saying that natural movements are to be encouraged, and are superior.
The philosophy of aikido is thus implicit in the practice of it.

My understanding of budo/aikido - as envisioned by O'Sensei - is that it is a means of preserving life - not a means of taking it; it is easy to kill, but it is harder - and more important - to preserve life and care for others.
I'm sure we're all familiar with the horrors which competition has led to...

My apologies for being verbose, and for any errors regarding judo/aikido.

Last edited by Gorgeous George : 07-27-2010 at 07:07 PM. Reason: Added link
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