Kevin Leavitt

Casey: Agree with most of your thoughts, but caution you against trying to fit everything into neat boxes and generalizations.

I would not say that Aikido has a greater effective potential over MMA/BJJ. I think "potential" and "effectiveness" are realitive terms that depend on the person, path, and perspective. It really is about what works for you. I do think though that Aikido is geared a little better at teaching basic principles that give you a good base for mastery of principle of dynamic movement. That does not mean you will be a good fighter, just understand prinicples.

I think you could equate it to a PhD that has taught an MBA program for his whole life without ever really being in business. He certainly will understand economic theories, and business models, but may not really be able to be a successful businessman. Doesn't mean he is not successful or has not acheived mastery...just that outside of his academic realm he is not effective.

On the other hand you can have a non high school graduate that makes millions and has mastered a business tand is very effective an successful. He may not be able to demonstrate theory or economic models, but he does know how to make money.

Both are masters and successes within their own realms.

Be careful about using the term "Aikido Principles" (I do it too!). The principles are universal in nature, aikido is a methodology that allows you to learn them. AIkido does not have the market on any prinicples. They exist in all arts of dynamic of movement, be it AIkido, MMA/BJJ, yoga, pilates etc.

Would agree that the path to mastery in aikido is a long one...how long depends on your goals and endstate. When you say "quicker learning curve" I think that depends on your goal and endstate. If your endstate is to grapple and submit one person..then yes, BJJ is probably a better methodology than aikido, does not mean you cannot achieve the same endstate by studying BJJ. Vice, if your endstate is perfect balance, blending, harmony etc...then AIkido may be quicker...it really depends on your personal goals.

I think the problem is not that there is anything wrong or good/bad about a training methodology...just that most people are confused about who they are and what they want out of their studies. I know I go back and forth between goals all the time which is why I study both aikido and BJJ. THis confusion causes internal conflict within me and is why I go back and forth all the time between BJJ and Aikido. I think this is where inner reflection, meditation etc come in to play to help you keep your mind in tune with your goals and focuses.

I would also be careful about generalizing too much about the fact that you would do well the first couple of decades studying BJJ being good, but not ultimately able to refine his art as old age begins. People evolve and change. Helio Grace is still a BJJ guy in his 80's I am sure he still trains and his perspective and goals have evolved over the years. There are many paths to mastery as well as many endstates.

Everyone seems to have this vision of what the ultimate martial artist in his 80s who has achieved "oneness" with the universe and is virtually enlightened and a demi god that can catch bullets. We all have this imaginary vision, but no one I have ever met or talked to can really define it in a quantifiable way or say "that is what it looks like". Sure, we have role models and they are different for everyone. I would love to look and move like Helio Gracie when I am in my 80's or any number of Shihan I have met over the years. You know, they all really look the same and preach the same message regardless of what they have studied. So I don't think it matters. How you define success is a internal matter between you and your mind.

Another thought. Think of the thousands of people that don't look like O'Sensei or the active Shihan in his 80s. Out of the thousands....only one or two achieve that level. It is a rare thing. I guess my point is there is no sure fire way to train to guarantee that you will be the "ultimate 80 year old warrior". No art has the corner on the market. It would be nice to say that if you went to 5 classes a week and did everything that sensei told you to do that you would be like him in 40 years...it simple fact is it is not that easy and what worked for him may not work for you! We are all wired differently.

I wouldn't wager that O'Sensei could "hold his own". personally I have no way of knowing if he could or couldn't. My guess would be the opposite that he would lose since he would be constrained to play by their rules. They train in a way that exploits those rules. Would not mean that O'Sensei wasa "failure", just not good a BJJ or MMA fighting. (Return to the PhD/no H.S grad analogy.) Vice, a UFC fighter would probably not do well in O'Sensei's environment.

On another note. Aikido as you probably know it today is not something you want to be doing in your 80's. How many 80 year olds do you see doing aikido anyway???? Most Shihan in there 60's if you pay attention to them are not taking ukemi and getting tossed around much are they? Why is that? Aikido is very hard on your body. I go back to my point about evolving. Yes, Aikido has room for you to evolve and in principle if you acheive mastery you do not really need to take ukemi anymore since in a perfect senario you could redirect and resolve any attack with little effort, but that is theory and principle. MMA and BJJ allow for this too.

What I like about MMA philosophy is that "anything goes" there is no definitions defining the context of what MMA is. It is what you want it to be and it will be different for every person. Most MMA guys that stay with this over 40 or 50 years you will find will evolve from ballistic hardcore ground fighitng to soft internal stuff and it is all MMA. Again, you are correct, most MMA/BJJ guys today will not be doing it in there 80's anyway. Also, true for Aikidoka though!

What you will find with an MMA guy is that they have a very good BS barometer. They are very open minded to aikido I have found, but they take away from it what works for them in the context of their personal goals. If you go in and show them some things and you cannot demonstrate how it will help them, they will dismiss it. It is no relection on how effective/ineffective aikido is, just didn't work for them.

Yea a MMA champ won't be able to defend his title in his 80s. O'Sensei probably could not have defended a title for a competition in his 80's either. You know a butterfly starts out as a caterpiller. They are the same animal, but as they evolve they lose and develop things that they could not do in the other state. Doesn't mean they are not the same animal, just that they evolved. I think this applies to Martial artist as well.

I think the "chip on the shoulder" that many Aikidoist have with MMA/BJJ guys is that you have seen an explosion in last 10 years of people taking up MMA/BJJ. Lots of young guys and wannabes come in study for a while and leave. It tends to annoy our egos as martial artist for some reason. Who are these brash dudes who dare to come in, kick ass for a while, lose interest and move on. Many talk a lot of trash, don't understand (or care to) our so-called "refinement" and almost look at distain with all the ritualistic "pseudo" japanese "respect". We tend to look at them as barbarians. It is a different culture than what we are used to so we tend to look down on it etc.

You know, the japanese did the same thing to the west many years ago. You must be careful!

You see the same thing happening in yoga. "Purist" yoga people adopt the same attitude to the healthclub "McStudios" that pop up and "certify" instructors overnight!

Good topic and good discussion. I would think hard as you are doing about this stuff and be very careful to not to generalize too much it will get you into trouble trying to put labels on things!!! Just keep it in perspective and train!