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Don Magee wrote:
I submit to you the wrestler, or the bigger stronger opponent. Both could resist a judoka. I submit to you MMA fighting, where judoka have beaten and been beat non-judoka. You train not to overcome resistance. You train WITH resistance.
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No argument, as I said you learn to cope best with the resistance you're trained to produce. Judo, MMA and wrestling are not identical and so each, I would suggest, resists in subtly different ways. A judoka would find fighting a wrestler different from fighting another judoka.
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Don Magee wrote:
Again, I think it is simply that as you become better at fighting you become better balanced, and your techniques have less openings, thus you are harder to attack. I can't possibly see how this could every be a bad thing.
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Or as you become better balanced, perfect your form you become harder to attack. It's a chicken and egg thing.
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Don Magee wrote:
When I started bjj shortly afterwards I discovered that because of the more limited ground ruleset in judo I was getting up right schooled by 3 month white belts in bjj. Because they were used to dealing with wrestlers they were hard to throw just like my judo training partners (of my level).
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Or forms of resistance appropriate to a Judo ruleset were inappropriate under a BJJ ruleset.
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Don Magee wrote:
I found that in the timespan I had gotten a lot better at throwing bjj guys. Now why does this matter? Because bjj guys do not stand or move like judo guys. BJJ guys are more worried about single legs then harai goshi. So they have a low stiff armed posture with bent knees and a upright head. Ready to shoot. Judo players stand almost upright and a posture that is not protecting of a shot at all. Yet somehow though my training with judo I got better at throwing bjj students.
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BJJ guys in short, do not have the appropriate resistance for dealing with stand up Judo. My previous comment in reverse, what makes sense in BJJ doesn't prepare you to deal with Judo.
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Don Magee wrote:
Why? Because in judo randori I was trying to throw a person who only had two things on his mind.
1) Throw me.
2) Do not get thrown by me.
This means I was learning to create very efficient basics of control and position. I was learning to control the encounter and lead the fight to where I wanted it to go. The throw is inconsequential.
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No argument within a Judo context. I'm not so sure that fighting a judoka is great prep for fighting anyone else though.
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Don Magee wrote:
Likewise with bjj. The point of sparing is to improve your control and positioning. The submission are secondary. Because of this my judo ground game (with different rules) improved dramatically. It doesn't matter that the basis of my bjj game is drastically different then my judo ground game (most of my favorite submission and positions in bjj would either get me disqualified from a judo match or force us to stand back up). I was learning solid foundations of position and control that can be applied to any situation.
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Any situation on the ground.
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Don Magee wrote:
Overtime I was also able to learn to use some of that TKD and Aikido that I trained. I started slowly modifying the techniques I was taught to deal with the realities of the alive training. I no longer had a partner throwing a unbalanced punch at the direction of my face, but a person hell bent on hitting me with good footwork, timing, speed, and power. He was not going to leave that hand out to grab, but bring it in for defense so I did not do the same to him. I had to learn to draw my opponent out and create openings for my techniques. I've slowly gained a small reputation at the club for being the sneaky guy with the crazy controls, takedowns, and wristlocks.
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You studied the art, found the openings, applied what you learned elsewhere aided, I'd suggest, because what you're doing is "crazy" it's new and no pattern for resisting it exists in your new envoironment.
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Don Magee wrote:
On top of this, the sparing is forcing me to grow as a fighter. When I first started bjj I had an awesome sholder hold pin and a nice choke from that position. It was dominating my training partners. But after a short while they all knew the trick and not only could defend it with ease (forcing me to learn new things), but they started doing it to me (forcing me to be more aware of my situation).
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Again, that's pretty obvious, thing is they had the chance to study and develop effective resistance. This is not something someone out on the street, in a situation, can do. They can't stop you half way through shiho nage and then say "That's an interesting technique, could we go through this a couple of times until I work out how to resist it?"
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Don Magee wrote:
On top of this we would frequently get new people to spar with. He may be a wrestler looking to get into MMA, or a karate guy looking to learn grappling. Each one brought a new uniqueness to the sparing match. This caused us to be more adaptable to changing situations, and we even adopted some tricks from these guys. You quickly learn things you would never learn without noobs. Such as that while pinching the inner theigh hurts, you can tolerate it, or how to defend fingers being bent back, eyes gouged, biting, etc.
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Exactly what I was saying, each art brings it's own approaches. Just because you learn one approach it does not follow that you are prepared for all other approaches. So if we introduce resistance training in Aikido we have to be sure that we're training against someone acting as a real opponent does, rather than as an Aikidoka would. Assuming there's a difference, which I suggest there is.
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Don Magee wrote:
Resistance also does not have to be sparing to add drastically to your training. It could be as simple as taking a student and asking him to hit you. Not throw a shomen strike, but hit you and not stop trying to hit you until he has been subdued. Give your partner a real goal besides being a willing participant in his own beat down. Don't say "I want you to shoot a single leg and I will practice defense X", but rather "I want you to try to take me down for 3 minutes any way you know how without striking". Will you have to learn more then you would if your only attacker was a 5'4" 300 pound 16 year old with heart disease? Of course, however I would think being able to beat a trained fighter will make you better at handling a untrained one. For example, if I can block a sharp sniper like boxers attack, I think I can deal with the tells and giveaways of the laymans haymaker with ease.
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By and large I agree with you and I know a lot of dojo that train just like that. Although I will say that it's no good training against a trained fighter if it doesn't reflect how most people attack. A trained fighter in a ring or sparring situation is not the same as a pissed off guy and his mate(s) who thinks you've been eyeing up his girl and is now venting in your face. Will a boxer slam you into a wall and restrain you and then start punching you? Is that part of his training? Is a Judoka going to make a good puncher?
When we talk about a trained fighter we need to sort out just what this guy is trained in and how that training lines up with what goes on in the street. Are we sure that a trained fighter hasn't been trained out of things which are in fact very useful?
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Don Magee wrote:
On top of this, there are some things you can't train without doing it for real. You can't learn what it is like to have someone punch you in the face via kata and compliant drills. You can't learn what it is like to recover from a drastic mistake from compliant drills and kata, you can't learn what it is like to stand back up after you have fallen and are still under attack. You can't learn what it is like to get so stressed you lose awareness and get cornered and pummeled.
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Again this is my experience of randori and in fact kata practice. Mistakes are made and where I come from uke is expected to do something. On monday night I goofed irimi nage and was promptly thrown by my uke.