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Old 01-03-2011, 01:10 PM   #4
Lorel Latorilla
Location: Osaka
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 311
Re: Deliberations on the transmission of knowledge

Dan Harden wrote: View Post
That was very interesting Lorel
As you know, I rarely participate anymore. I resolved that the debating with the "supposed" experts was best done by....meeting with real experts. It is much more conclusive to have a recognized expert put his hands on your back and dantian and then push with you and have them tell you that you are doing X, Y, and Z in their art, than argue on the web.

Sadly, I have noted that some of those shouting from the roof tops the loudest about "teachers holding back" and the "ugliness of martial politics" and the "games you have to play for information"...have proven in the fullness of time it is they themselves who have the darkest personalities and politicing of them all!!

The solution is to tell everyone to go out and train with all of the self proclaimed amateur/experts and the real experts as well. That, in and of itself, forces people to gain more exposure and form opinions on real skill, and method, and then think. Then they can find teachers/coaches with a stable personality that they can work with.

Teachers and coaches can be VERY weird, and information used as a whip or bat just isn't worth it to me. Anyone who tried to convince me they were the only one with knowledge and tried to narrow the dialogue to their terms or tried to convince me they were the arbiter of what is BS or truth...always...ALWAYS... turned out to be the one slinging the most BS. You see it with certain topics with people "crying for a discussion...." then they cancel out everything everyone says...but they themselves never offer anything of substance in rebuttal. Many people seem to have fallen for that.... in great heaping spoonfuls. It's great to be reading more and more people getting hip to this nonsense.
When it comes to IP/aiki it is great to see that Ark is like me...just get out there and do it, keep meeting these so called experts in the martial arts, and let their bodies try and back up their opinions, "understanding," and expertise, and see how it all works out. And in the end... just continue being nice.

Speaking of nice....
I heard a very similar story from Bill Gleason about "The honest exchange" of information and why the web is not the forum to do that in. "Why do you waste your time arguing with people who cannot deliver in real life and spend their time trying to defend a 'position? Don't you get it? They have a vested interest in BEING right. There is no honest discussion, to be had! It's just not worth it."

The only place I have ever heard being "nice" written off and spoken about like it was some sort of social disease was in the Non aikido martial traditions section of Aikiweb by certain people. It was spoken about almost as a disqulaifier.

Thanks for reminding everyone to keep their B.S. meters on and
that there are some really fantastic people out there working it and right now this is including some real Martial art experts who are coming together in a common search for the heart of these arts. Wisely...and perhaps rightly so, I have noted that as time goes on,I am seeing certain people being written out of that search, mostly for the behavior you have noted.
All the best
Hi Dan,

I knew you would appreciate this. I think it is important at this stage to meet with people because the path to acquire these skills has not been laid out. In other words, this stuff hasn't been 'codified' yet so really, discussion is not beneficial at all to those who are not exposed to these skills, and in part, beneficial for us who are exposed to these skills. Once this stuff has been codified and industrialised (for the sake of a better word), then maybe we can talk about instruction through words.

I'm in the strange position of not being able to train regularly with a group (I live in Osaka, and the Aunkai guys are in Tokyo) so this is a touchy subject for me. The only exposure I have for the most part to getting a true understanding of these skills are words from friends, and training logs and stuff like that. So when I am not allowed to think and tinker with the contents of this stuff, when someone from up and above prevents 'discussion', then I have to cry foul, in some way or another.

Training with 'nice' people is a good way to put it. However, I think there is an unseen gravity here. There is a potential for people to lose their integrity (moral integrity perhaps) in pursuit of these skills. Call it a Faustian bargain. I think it is important to note that we do not need to make 'Faustian bargains' in pursuit of these skills and that the knowledge is out there, and wielded by nice and genuine people who sincerely want to give this knowledge to people.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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