View Single Post
Old 06-05-2005, 11:14 PM   #65
Red Beetle
Dojo: Ithaca
Location: Tennessee
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 97
Grr! Re: So I took a Judo class today...

It is just as much a combat art than any other, in fact even basic high school wrestling is a very effective way to defend yourself.
You keep missing the point. I teach AAU wrestling for middle school and high school kids. See my website under the 'wrestling' button. We do not teach these kids how to close the distance and clinch when someone is punching at them. We teach them to wrestle another wrestler who is competing in a folk-style tournament with folk-style rules. If an AAU wrestler is going to use his folk-style skills for actual combat, then he will have to be innovative himself, or ask someone trained in Jiu-jitsu to help him.
Olympic Judo is the same as AAU wrestling. Take Udo Quellmaz, German gold medalist Judo in the 96 Olympics in Atlanta. How long did Udo practice avoiding punches before he played in Atlanta? He prepared for a jacketed wrestling event, not a street fight. That is what Olympic Judo is, it is a jacketed wrestling event.
You won't see Jimmy Pedro kneeing anyone in the face in any of his Olympic matches. You won't see Nicolas Gill evading kicks to the legs, body, or head in any of his international Judo matches, because strikes are not allowed. Because, modern Olympic Judo is not combat.

Grappling is a very effective way to defend yourself, especially grappling techniques that are strengthened through competition and randori.
This I agree with. You are so right. When I fought challenge matches against people from other styles of Martial Arts I agreed not to strike at all, unless the challenger tried to gouge my eyes or bite me. Even in the matches where they tried to claw my eyes and bite me, I never had to do anything other than wrestle. The point of such a match was to demonstrate the combat effectiveness of Jiu-jitsu. I could not have done such things if I did not understand how to close the distance when someone was trying to strike. I could not have been so effective unless I knew how to suffocate arm movement once the fight reached the ground. Believe it or not, you have to know how to wrestle a striker once he is on the ground, if you are going to do so without being hit. There is a logical method. There is a way to hold tate-shiho-gatame without being bit. There is a way to hold side control so that your adversary can't claw your eyes. These are all Jiu-jitsu tactics designed with the dirty fighter in mind.

But in Olympic Judo, we do not have to worry about Udo Quellmaz launching a spinning hook kick at my head when the ref starts the match.

There is not a single martial art on the planet that would be combat ready by your definition
Gracie Jiu-jitsu accomplishes this.
They are trained to handle wrestlers, as well as, strikers. Before anyone could begin to become effective against the Gracie system they had to first understand what unarmed combat entailed.

I will be the first to say that tournament Brazilian Jiu-jitsu is not combat ready if that is all the Bjj player is trained for. There is no striking in Bjj gi/no-gi tournaments. Most Bjj teachers have a working knowledge of Gracie Jiu-jitsu and vale-tudo (something different from Gracie Jiu-jitsu), since Bjj mostly came from the Gracie family.

But regardless if you do kata training or not, once the Judoka closes the distance striking is pretty much useless anyway.
Ken Shamrock faced an United States Judo player in one of the early UFCs. I cannot think of the guys name, but he was an excellent Judoka. He fought in a blue kimono. After the clinch, Ken pounded him into submission. The Judo guy had only been trained for tournament play. He was not ready to deal with a guy who could grapple and strike. Ken never defeated Royce in their engagements. He did dot Royce's eye during the timed 'superfight', but that is quite different from a no-time-limit event which the Gracies specialize in.

Renzo Gracie fought a European Judo champion in one of the earlier reality combat events. It was called World Combat.... I can't remember the exact name. Maybe somebody else can. Anyway, the Judo guy did get the take-down, despite what was written in the book by Kid Peligro titled "The Gracie Way." The Judoka took Renzo down with Morote-gari. Renzo did a nice sweep and ended up on the Judoka's back. The guy turtles and Renzo unloads the Gracie elbow to the guy's neck and head. That was the Gracie way of handling Olympic Judo's defensive turtle position. The European Judoka was simply doing what he had trained all of his life to do....Turtle. His Judo was not combat ready. His Judo is Olympic Judo.

What do you mean "You are not teaching that person to close the distance and clinch when the adversary strikes at you." This is the very essence of Judo and where it excels.
Come on, Olympic Judo teaches a person how to skew their stances, play patty-cake, hide grips, take grips, grip climbing, and break grips. It does not teach people how to close the distance and clinch when the guy is throwing hay-maker after hay-maker, or when the guy is kicking, and so on. Show me an Olympic or international Judo competition where striking is going on. The New York Open have any knock outs due to the left hook? I think you are just being stubborn.

Again, there is not martial art that exists that excels at all of the combat conditions you have laid out here.
Again, Gracie Jiu-jitsu

Since this is an Aikido forum I will pick specifically on it using your logic. Aikido does not train much grappling especially newaza, therefore it is not combat effective. Aikido does not really teach how to strike effectively, therefore it is not combat effective. Aikido does little randori or competition, therefore it is not combat effective. Aikido does not train very often against kicks, therefore it is not combat effective. etc. etc. etc.
I never said Aikido is combat effective. Like Olympic Judo, the techniques of Aikido will work under specific combat circumstances. These circumstances may or may not appear in unarmed combat.

Thus, we are back to my analogy of the three sisters. If you really have to fight, you better have big sis on your side for safety.

Finally, I love Judo. I love Aikido too. I want to promote each and see them prosper. I am sick of all these cheesy Tae Kwon Do schools, which don't even come close to what it is in the Olympics, making a fortune off of unsuspecting fools. These modern Tae Kwon Do and Karate places provide little more than social interation and baby-sitting. Do you want fries with that Black-belt?

Red Beetle
  Reply With Quote