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Old 07-03-2007, 08:20 AM   #1170
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Emmmm.... do you think that you and I are the only people who read this thread and Dan's previous posts? I asked where he learned something... not what his credentials were.
Same thing, Mike. You also demanded specifically "who" taught him. You should read again. Everyone else knows what you said, as well.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Silk Reeling is a form of movement with qi/ki and jin/kokyu-power. That's all it is. In other words, your guess that there are specific, refined movements peculiar to Chinese martial arts indicates that you don't understand ki and kokyu, even though you use the terms.
There you go again, George Bush. So silk reeling is "ONLY" "a form of movement with qi/ki and jin/kokyu power." That's "all" it is, huh? Then "any" movement with qi/ki and jin/kokyu (again, that mistaken relation) "is" "Silk Reeling"? Don't buy it, Senator. You're no Morihei Ueshiba. Your big fallacy is surfacing again. Stick to tai chi, which you apparently know pretty well. Most people who become accomplished there are satisfied with that. Only the kichigai have the intense need to be recognized simultaneously as experts in JMA, and only the really kichigai pursue it so doggedly and in such insulting fashion to all others. Now you're bending your holy principles (that Chris couldn't possibly know) into something very simple. That's called kichigai.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Go back to my example of karate having kokyu and Aikido having kokyu.
You could have given an example of "how the earth is flat" and made as much sense and been just as true. Yes, both karate and aikido use kokyu, but they use it in virtually opposite ways. Karate uses kokyu in kiai while aikido uses the ura of kiai, which is aiki. And since you've shown previously that you don't understand kiai either, I don't expect that explanation to affect your walnut-sized brain in the least, but there it is.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
There are karate people and Aikido people who have no idea what that means, so they take a superficial appearance, belief in their own style being unique, etc., and postulate to the world about the great "differences".... similar to what you're publicly doing. Yet, go ask Ikeda Sensei why he's discussing kokyu with the karate expert, Ushiro. Ikeda understands there's no real difference.
Have you had that discussion with Ikeda Sensei, yourself, or are you, like so much else you do, simply speculating from a distance. "Aha! I see that the sunrise is a golden color! Ergo, the sun is made of gold!!!! I shall take mys spaceship to the sun and return a rich man!!!"

.....yeh......

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Reeling silk is just a variant of the same process and it does NOT come from the movement of Chinese silk makers, for chrissake. Your whole commentary about silk reeling and "refined Chinese principles" is a fignewton of your imagination.
No, it isn't. Since I am only one human being, able to study deeply in only a few subjects, I supplement my direct experience with extensive reading in areas where I cannot make direct explorations. And being interested only in the truth of those matters, I read only the best writers I can find. You, fortunately, are not among those. But what I have read is that silk reeling movement did develop from a local Chinese culture of silk making, based on the particular unique movement of the silk makers drawing out the silk thread and reeling it onto spindles or holding devices. Just as the Okinawans developed the oar and the kama into weapons requiring unique manipulations and therefore unique physical movements, the Chinese developed this silk reeling movement, "REFINED" it, evolved it and incorporated it into the major Chinese martial arts. The deep particulars of it are beyond my experience, but I trust my sources on that far more than I would trust you with my dog.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Who cares?
Someone must.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The movements in Aikido employ pulling silk, which is just a variant of ki/kokyu as is reeling silk.
Now, that is very interesting. I said "show me any Japanese art that uses silk reeling" and you said that "probably" some ancient ryu once used it. Then you told Chris that his koryu couldn't possibly employ it. And now you say that aikido does employ it.

Is there any reason you didn't give that answer when I first said, "Show me a Japanese art that uses it"?

Hadn't made it up yet, maybe???

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
OK, so all they have to do to respond to my side of the discussion is provide some details of how it works, right? Some people might just say, "I don't know", but that seems to be declasse' on this list.
Not with me. I've said it several times, haven't I? You are the one least likely to use that phrase, of all the many tinfoil-hat-wearing genius know-it-alls on the entire internet, Mike Sigman is THE #1 LEAST likely of all to admit "not knowing" something about any subject known to man. Here's your Internet Trophy, Mike.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Actually, a LOT of people now have "got" what Draeger and a number of the earlier martial-arts buffs didn't get in regard to this very narrow subject, but a very key subject... in a number of martial arts.
But the important point is that "you," Mike Sigman, esq., Lord of All He Surveys, King of All to whom He Speaks, Master of Every Subject Known, "got" what Donn Draeger didn't get as a menkyo holder in Katori Shinto Ryu, master of judo, founder of hoplology, veteran of decades in Asia and student of many, many great Japanese and Chinese martial artists. And you did it all inside your own, magnificent head........

That tinfoil really works, huh?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
But that's called progress.
Are you saying they didn't have tinfoil in Draeger's day, or they hadn't yet learned to make hats of it? Or maybe you have just devised a superior type of hat from it???? Progress is a wonderful thing.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Unless you want to postulate that Draeger et al represented all there was to know about relatively shallow, technique-oriented Asian martial arts? Is that your position?
Well, at least we know "who" trained Draeger and "what" he learned, which we don't know about Mike Sigman. And from Draeger's hands-on experience with the breadth and depth of masters he knew (and since you, yourself, have lamented the decline into the modern day), I'm pretty sure that I'd much prefer to learn from Draeger than from thee.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
You made the assertion. I questioned it. You devoted posts to denigrating me in response, trying to mask your lack of knowledge and to curtail questions.
Mike, the denigrating posts were entirely unrelated to the other questions, which I dealt with in other posts. I just felt that the denigrating posts needed to be made. They were related to the thread only to the degree that you needed to have your festering boils lanced. It's a messy, messy job, but it was just crying out to be done, so...I did it.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
You're used to speaking unquestioned to a bunch of open-mouthed students, I suppose?
That's a laugh. Nobody believes anything I say. I was uchi-deshi to one of the earliest uchi-deshi to one of the undeniably most senior students of Sokaku Takeda. I know my skills and abilities and, most importantly, what my limits are. I sacrificed a huge portion of my time on earth to learning aikido from the best there was available at that time. And he told me that I "pretty well understand" or "pretty completely understand" (daibu wakaru) aikido. But no one listens to a thing I say.

And that's fine with me. I'd always rather be underestimated than fully understood....

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Why not just accept that if you make a public assertion it's open to public question and that slandering the questioner is not generally the best response.
I'm fine with that. I just wonder why "you" don't take that attitude when your assertions are questioned.

And again, my critique of your posting style was neither 'slander' nor a response to your questions. It was just a dirty job that had to be done.

Best wishes.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 07-03-2007 at 08:27 AM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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