Be wary of confirmation bias. Earlier I mentioned that they might be bullies as one of two distinct possibilities, but you seem to have latched onto that one. Consider the other possibility: that these individuals are doing something that they think is worth practicing, and that they are looking for a very specific approach, condition of body alignment, or very precise control by nage. It may be the case that practicing with them will drastically improve your technical abilities. Try talking with them about it. Be curious, rather than frustrated or angry when you approach them.
I've been avoiding the "bully" label for years, and it certainly wasn't an Internet post that lead me to that conclusion, but comments from my friend who switched dojos, comments from another training partner, and a few other people.
Oh, and finally dropping the aforementioned notion that it's all my problem. Our problem.
I've seen enough. After driving people away from that class, these two are often a good half of the class, impossible to avoid. And avoidance was never part of my philosophy. Avoidance means not growing.
I've ran into many problematic interactions in "over a decade" of training, and for ALL of them, managed to do one of the following things:
* Figure out the type of ukemi the person wants and why
* Figure out that they're working around an injury
* Figure out that I misunderstood kata and they were correcting me
* Figure out that they came from a different school and use a now-understandable-to-me philosophy in training
* Figure out that I've been too rough on the person in a tunnel-vision goal of pursuing sharp technique
* Figure out what I can learn from them
I've managed to figure out, or at least retroactively understand, all conflicting interactions, and harbor no ill will toward any of the people involved. Except these people, whom I've given up on understanding. I'm done thinking it's my fault.
Due to their dominance in Sensei's class, they're playing Secondary Instructor game with their training mode. I know one of them injured a guy from another dojo at a seminar, who just got into his car and drove away.
One of them gave the other a major injury in beginning of 2014 which put him out of commission, but they seem to look at these as some sort of proud battle scars.
We had one high-ranked practitioner from Yoshinkan who had stubborn ukemi of his own; one of these guys injured him and he didn't come back.
This ukemi only works one way. Two ways, it creates injury.
It's hard to prove, but I've seen them alter beginners'/intermediate students' ukemi into something rigid and stiff. This is clearly NOT their "teaching goal", but they've not been endowed with the gift of teaching, so the beginners just imitate their resistant, double-minded ukemi after training with them.
As result I've seen at least one student get injured by another instructor, but it really wasn't his fault. The student's ukemi was altered into stiffness by blindly imitating these guys, and this person fell wrong during a routine technique demo.
It's not just them, but the general atmosphere and spirit of training which has been altered. They've weeded out everyone except Sensei and people who are willing to put up with them (but still can't throw them). The overall result is a more dangerous atmosphere with no practical benefit. Our beginner's class is now self-segregated and none of them are crossing into Sensei's class.
@Dan: "Attracting people who want this type of practice" does not work. These people have proven to be a repellant.
Given their ukemi, they could stop anyone, including Sensei, because this is a stylized practice method after all, and after the first technique execution they know the rest of what's coming. They could do the same thing - give a limp attack with intent to counter, growl and retaliate or withdraw when atemi happens, etc. Of course he would sense that and tell them to stop doing it, so they don't do it. Why create problems with someone who can directly ban you?
But the "lesser students" are different. We have no right to TRY. Otherwise, it will escalate into an injurious situation fast. They will not let anyone take their balance.
When you train without connective/corrective feedback to your partner, you're straying farther and farther from any learning, meaning or applicability.
Sensei regularly makes speeches addressing their behavior, and the apprentices they're cultivating. They're not direct enough, and they will keep ignoring them. Hence, after yet another pointless waste of time class, I walked out with a particular level of clarity, and then followed my friend's lead and switched dojos when it comes to that class.
It was the best decision I've made in years.
And yes, I'm aware that due to the details of these posts these people can easily figure out who I am, and we can still run into one another.
Done caring, though.