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Old 05-15-2009, 01:31 PM   #21
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Re: O sensei and 'correct ukemi'

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Hello Mark, Ron,

Well, I have had the benefit of talking at length to those like Tamura and Tada Shihans, who were senior deshi of Morihei Ueshiba and took ukemi very often, and also to present shihans in the Hombu who regularly take ukemi for the present Doshu. The point here is that, in their estimation, the ukemi had to match the waza as exactly as possible, in the sense that O Sensei's / Doshu's practice was / is a living textbook of the art. So there is a need for immense sensitivity here, of interpreting as closely as possible the signals transmitted through movements, actions, even subtle, unexpressed intentions. .
I understand that they wanted to learn something from him and it was the only way to learn by feeling, as O sensei didn't explain techniques from technical point of view.
However I don't believe it was intention of O sensei to teach his students all these subtilities after IIWW.At that point of time he wasn't interested in physical aspect of practice anymore.

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
This is what I meant, when I stated in another thread that ukemi was the ura-gawa of waza. I think this aspect is completely divorced from any idea of tanking, or the intensity of the attack you make. If you think of the various waza, like 1-kyo, 3-kyo, shiho-nage, kote-gaeshi, there is an 'ideal form' of both waza and ukemi (the ukemi has to be 'correct': has to match the waza, otherwise either uke or tori would be injured). Aikido 3D is a clear, but unsubtle, example of such an ideal form, which is probably taught to beginners in every aikido dojo on the planet..
I think you are trying here to develop kata-like practice (aka 'ideal form' of both waza and ukemi). This is a very clear contradiction to the idea of controlling an attacker from the moment when idea of attack is raised in his head.You still make clear difference between nage and uke. This makes impossible the spontanous execution of the techniques even after 50 years of intensive practice. If you don't go through this rather primary dualism, you will never be able to FEEL the unity of the World and communicate with Kami.

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
After Szczepan's initial post, I trawled thougth Stan Pranin's Aikido Masters for evidence about Ueshiba's early teaching methods. Junior recruits had to do chores and watch training before being allowed to do anything. I cannot remember the source, but I have read that deshi were also required to spend a lengthy period taking ukemi before being allowed to do any waza themselves. Why would this be necessary, if not to teach the sensitivity required to match the waza with the 'correct' response?..
It was a very simple filter to reject casual students, and keep only serious ones. You are still not able to provide a single prove that O sensei taught ukemi('correct' or even ANY ukemi) to his students.
I don't believe S. Takeda taught ukemi to his students neither LOL

If I remember well from the conversations with O sensei students, nobody taught even how to roll forward or backward at the time.
Some of them consider today's ukemi teaching as a important pedagogical mistake.

In general I think you are looking at the problem from the point of view of students of O sensei.
Try this:
Put yourself at his place for the moment - and think if the way how the students receive your techniques has the smallest importance for you.


ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo