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Magma · 01-14-2002, 01:38 PM

How quickly this degenerates into a debate over beliefs on the mat, which is actually the opposite of what it should be.

CA, there are specific beliefs that you mention which can be stepped on in the course of planning an event. (BTW, I do not eat ham for religious reasons - but I am not Jewish nor Muslim... but I still understood your point about beliefs other than my own). However, there are others that are wholesale, sweeping categorizations based on inference, history, fear, or generalizations.

"Some people use candles for religious ceremonies, and other people use them to meditate... so if I light a candle, it's going to be for one of these purposes, too."

We end up with the anti-Amish: someone who HAS to use electrically powered lights rather than candles.

"O'sensei bowed to awaken the gods or rouse his ancestors, therefore if I bow, I am also trying to awaken the gods or rouse my ancestors."

Really?

Similarly, "The bible says don't bow to any graven image, to have no gods before God, so if I bow at all I am setting that thing up as an idol."

No, what counts as setting something up as an idol is... "setting something up as an idol." Notice that I am not defining what that is; each person would have to define that if they were concerned. However, it is these broad-shored absolutes that I find naive and closed-minded. You know what, maybe people could find a brace that didn't let them bend at the waist at all... ever. Need to pick up a small child? Sorry, can't do it. Why? Because you would be bowed over and you can't suffer that.

"Oh, in picking up that child you would be bowing for a different purpose than [praying to that child/raising the gods/invoking your ancestors/insert sin here]? But for some reason you can't see yourself doing that on the mats... hmm."

And just so we're clear, I respect everyone's beliefs. I do not accept all of them; in fact, some I find downright childish, some an affront to what I believe, and some naive. Others I find beautiful. But I respect them all. "Bowing equals Religion" I find naive... but believe it if you want. On the other hand, just because you believe it does not make it any less naive to me.

I'm not asking anyone to change their faith. All I am asking is don't ask me to change the art of Aikido. Bowing is a part of it, a part of the traditions. If someone can't handle that, then they can't handle the art.

01-14-2002, 01:38 PM	#17
Magma Join Date: Aug 2000 Posts: 168 Offline	form and ritual How quickly this degenerates into a debate over beliefs on the mat, which is actually the opposite of what it should be. CA, there are specific beliefs that you mention which can be stepped on in the course of planning an event. (BTW, I do not eat ham for religious reasons - but I am not Jewish nor Muslim... but I still understood your point about beliefs other than my own). However, there are others that are wholesale, sweeping categorizations based on inference, history, fear, or generalizations. "Some people use candles for religious ceremonies, and other people use them to meditate... so if I light a candle, it's going to be for one of these purposes, too." We end up with the anti-Amish: someone who HAS to use electrically powered lights rather than candles. "O'sensei bowed to awaken the gods or rouse his ancestors, therefore if I bow, I am also trying to awaken the gods or rouse my ancestors." Really? Similarly, "The bible says don't bow to any graven image, to have no gods before God, so if I bow at all I am setting that thing up as an idol." No, what counts as setting something up as an idol is... "setting something up as an idol." Notice that I am not defining what that is; each person would have to define that if they were concerned. However, it is these broad-shored absolutes that I find naive and closed-minded. You know what, maybe people could find a brace that didn't let them bend at the waist at all... ever. Need to pick up a small child? Sorry, can't do it. Why? Because you would be bowed over and you can't suffer that. "Oh, in picking up that child you would be bowing for a different purpose than [praying to that child/raising the gods/invoking your ancestors/insert sin here]? But for some reason you can't see yourself doing that on the mats... hmm." And just so we're clear, I respect everyone's beliefs. I do not accept all of them; in fact, some I find downright childish, some an affront to what I believe, and some naive. Others I find beautiful. But I respect them all. "Bowing equals Religion" I find naive... but believe it if you want. On the other hand, just because you believe it does not make it any less naive to me. I'm not asking anyone to change their faith. All I am asking is don't ask me to change the art of Aikido. Bowing is a part of it, a part of the traditions. If someone can't handle that, then they can't handle the art.
Magma Join Date: Aug 2000 Posts: 168 Offline	Tim It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.