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Old 05-31-2011, 09:18 AM   #28
HL1978
Dojo: Aunkai
Location: Fairfax, VA
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 429
United_States
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Re: playing with weight and a question

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Hunter,

Weren't you going to post some videos of a few exercises or some things you are working on? Whatever happened to that? Don't you think you should stand by your word?
Sure I will put some new ones.

I don't have the links to my old ones anymore as I don't have access to the forum with the links.

Quote:
I know anatomy and kinesiology is a challenge for many of you, but, and this may come as a surprise, your shoulders cannot "push" the arms down.

So, if the shoulders are "relaxed" how do the arms raise?

Seriously. What does "relaxed" mean to you? Do you truly believe that it is possible to raise the arms without the deltoids activating? Or are you really referring to "feelings" that you want to develop in your body?
A large part of it is feeling based. You get a sensation and then try and replicate it again and again. See my discussion in the post with Mike about heavy vs light for one just about any one can feel (going "light").

Your shoulders can absolutely push the arms down. Your shoulders have a ball socket and can rotate up/down, forwards/backwards, left right, likewise you can raise and lower the shoulder socket. Most people are aware that if you raise the shoulder socket up, like the same position a shoulder shrug the arms generate less power. Conversly, even if my shoulders are relaxed, I can push that shoulder socket down maybe half an inch with the deltoids. You can also push or round the shoulder socket forwards, and pull the shoulders back like a military attention position.

All I was trying to say there is that pushing with the arms and shoulders doesn't make for a heavier arm, with heavyness being percieved by myself or by my partner/opponent. Instead you wind up tensing the muscles which makes it easier for an opponent to manipulate. Additionally you may find that you are pushing yourself off or away from your opponent ala newtons 3rd law which leads to the "light" sensation. If your arms are to be percieved as being "heavier" than just the weight of the arms alone, that heavyness has to be coming from somewhere else.

Now I think Phi posted a link a while back showing a study done with Kuroda showing he uses a lot less upper body than most people for a given movement. On the otherhand, you have all the fascia discussion and I have seen or felt guys that can "pull the skin" from the lower torso area which causes their arms to raise. I can do that to a very small degree and it causes my arms to raise up a few inches.

Now, if I hold a position like this:

http://laquetedekiaz.files.wordpress...pg?w=350&h=263

and relax the shoulders, I have found that other areas of my body tend to bear the weight so that my shoulders aren't fatigued. It has shifted from initally from my shoulders, to underneath the arms, to underneath the ribs as I learn to progressively relax each of those muscles to bear the weight. Are each of those areas becoming stronger to bear the weight of the shoulders/arms as I conciously relax? Perhaps, I don't know. On the other hand, my training partners will say that it feels like the weight of my arms is getting lower and lower with more body weight in the arm a "heavier" feeling. If all I do is hold the arms up with the shoulders, these lower areas never seem to come in to play and get tired. I can only assume that they are not being worked unless the shoulders are relaxed. Its also my understanding that the arm weight can be born eventually in the lower torso, but I am not there yet.

As for what relaxed is, it doesn't mean limp noodled. Though doing so seems to make the body feel very heavy to yourself and a partner. If you have a the muscles relaxed, but either structurly good alignment or the body held together via the Mike Sigman suit/fasica model to hold the shape, it leads to relaxed muscles and heavy limbs.

Quote:
Listen, I agree that directing your weight straight down, using gravity, not depending on anything/anyone else for your balance, being relaxed, and favoring the lower body are all positive qualities, but I really feel you need to communicate much more clearly about the ideas you bring up for discussion.
I agree. So much of what I am currently doing is chasing/recreating sensations, in order to utilize different muscles, or generate/maintain the heavy (or other feelings) that it is difficult to talk about unless you have felt the same thing. Even if you have some experiences in common, there seems to be trouble discussing it as well.

Heck, look at how many martial arts expressions that are out there which can be viewed as a sensation vs philosophy. We see plenty of arguments either way here on aikiweb for both viewpoints.

Last edited by HL1978 : 05-31-2011 at 09:23 AM. Reason: grammar
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