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Old 08-08-2011, 07:25 AM   #33
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
1. If you can't or won't refute the subject you started
2. And If you won't provide any information on the subject you started, as you just stated...
Why on earth would I refute the subject I started? Did you misspeak?

I did provide information and observations and pertinent questions. Look again:
Quote:
So the question is really more along the lines of "what did Ueshiba do, when and *how* did he do it, and where did he learn it?" There are related questions to be asked about what Tohei, Shioda, and others knew, when and how did they did it, where they learned it, and so on.

In my personal view there are some things that Ueshiba does (in terms of body movement) that are not quite the same as seen in Tohei, Shioda, any Daito Ryu guys on videos that I've seen, and so on. Over the years I've watched all the videos of Ueshiba (and many others, too, of course) and my impression is that Ueshiba actually used his dantien somewhat more than you'd think at first glance, but he used it in relation to pretty linear jin, not the winding jin. Among a number of reasons I could list, let me point out a couple:

There is no indication of winding training in any drill done by Ueshiba.

The winding jin doesn't work in closely held arms and a high stance. There is an old saying "qi does not go through a bent joing" and in this case they're talking about the aspect of qi that I refer to as "suit" as a way of differentiating what it is.

If someone makes a throw and ends up with one arm up and one arm down, one leg forward and one leg back, that does not mean that they are using "spiraling" power, since that type of posture is common and traditional through many martial arts. I had an Aikido teacher who did the same thing, BTW, and he had no internal-strength skills whatsoever; hence, it indicates not much.

One of the real questions I've had over the years is just what Ueshiba knew. I feel like I have a better grasp after years of reading and watching videos, but it's still difficult to speak with absolute surety in many cases. Does he use "reeling silk" though? Pretty definitely not, so Chen's Taiji is not a good comparison for that reason. Yang's Taiji that uses "Pulling Silk" is probably a much better comparison (of course they also claim to use "reeling", but they don't actually).
It seems that every time substance is raised in a conversation, you tend to try to trivialize it and avoid getting into any depth. For years, after a probing questions that seem to have upset you, you've done this same thing. You want "debate".... here's debate.

The only problem with the spiralling discussion is that it brings back up your probem of jin being linear, of course.... but so far you haven't been able to explain it. Here's your chance.

Mike Sigman
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