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Old 09-14-2008, 01:23 PM   #22
Allen Beebe
Location: Portland, OR
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 532
Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 10

Hi Josh,

Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
Well, the Sho-Chiku-Bai forms come from the Omote-no-Tachi of Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, which Gejo Kosaburo trained in.
It sounds here that you are asserting that the source of *all* Sho-Chiku-Bai forms come from "the Omote-no-Tachi of Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, which Gejo Kosaburo trained in."

Is it true that you are asserting this? And, are you asserting this for Ueshiba Morihei or Shirata Rinjiro?

Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
Sho-Chiku-Bai is not a motif found there. I've seen the original densho of the founder, Kamiizumi Ise-no-Kami, the three major kuden-sho by Yagyu Munetoshi and his grandson, as well as some minor ones written by other headmasters and shihan, and it's not in any of them. I suppose there's an outside chance that there might be an obscure reference to it in some of the Edo Yagyu densho -- I haven't had the opportunity to sit down and read them start to finish --, but it's not in Munenori's Heiho Kadensho, and just about every motif in the other Edo Yagyu writings are found in there. In the Owari Yagyu line, the one studied by Gejo Kosaburo (the man Mr. Amdur surmises was the source for Ueshiba's Shinkage Ryu knowledge), it is not a part of the training. There are a number of phrases and concepts that pop up again and again, but I haven't seen or heard "Sho-Chiku-Bai" even once.
Hmmm, maybe I just morphed Ellis' pointing out of a connection between Shinkake ryu and Ueshiba's Sho Chiku Bai no Kenpo into a connection between the phrase Sho Chiku Bai and Shinkage Ryu . . . I'm perfectly capable of making that kind of mistake.

Shucks! I thought I had a pretty clever theory there for just a moment. At least enough to create a story line for new 'Neato Itto Portland Shinkage ha Daito Ryu (大刀龍)Sho Chiku Bai Kenpo - school of Ninjutsu and martial arts supply - studio and juice bar."

Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
Perhaps there is some reference that he picked up from Takeda, who trained in Jikishinkage Ryu.
Perhaps, I know of no evidence of this.

Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
I'm more inclined to assume he took it from its ubiquitous use in Japanese culture, and I'm not sure why you doubt it.
It just that it seemed random. (Which is why I wondered what the source or inspiration for the name was.) I wouldn't have doubted some Omoto/Shinto connected naming. It is due to Sho-Chiku-Bai's ubiquity that it seemed odd to me. It is difficult to believe that he might just as likely have named his ken Maneki Neko no Kenpo. But I suppose that is unfair. Sho Chiku Bai usage is quite common in the martial arts world and maybe that alone explains it.

It would be nice to know for sure.

Thanks Josh,


~ Allen Beebe
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