Ecosamurai

It's a long post and I was gonna reply yesterday but have only just now found the time. But seeing as you went to the trouble of writing it I'll take the time to reply.

You said that before in your first response to me Trouble with me is I like to be a glass half full kinda guy.

I think it's obviously one skill too, when I see Chen Xiao Wang and others doing stuff I see the same stuff as I see when Tohei or Ueshiba does it. Same stuff but in different settings. As I've said before, pour this skill into a Daito Ryu cup get Daito Ryu, into Aikido get Aikido. But once you know what you're looking for you can see it quite easily, so no, more videos aren't necessary.

Agreed. I think Tohei made the attempt to keep the internal skills as a part of the main stream but he left and pretty much took the tools he was using with him.

Well I agree with that completely. Now try to look at it from this perspective. You do actually know something of the real art (the extent of which we'll leave aside for now but we'll assume you're not as good at it as the Okinawan) and the gnarled old Okinawan teacher is displeased by the others in your dojo who quite clearly haven't got a clue what he is really doing, and aren't paying attention to what you are really doing. The gnarled old Okinawan teacher can be a little bit condescending and has a tendancy to be quite grouchy. He proceeds to tell the other members of the dojo in no uncertain terms that they just don't get it, that they aren't practicing real Sanchin, eventually his irritation approaches the line where it's not totally indistinguishable from haughtiness and verbal abuse of the other students. He isn't telling you personally off, but these other guys are your friends and you've learned a lot from them, even if they aren't doing Sanchin in the same way you are. You've sweated together, bled together and trained together for years. The Okinawan teacher stops being someone you want to listen to and you find yourself wanting to defend your friends, even if it means that you might not get the opportunity to learn to do Sanchin the way he does it.

Amongst other things, Koichi Tohei said:

"Even a one-inch worm has a half-inch spirit. Every man respects his own ego. Do not, therefore, slight anyone, nor hurt his self-respect. Treat a man with respect, and he will respect you. Make light of him, and he will make light of you. Respect his personality and listen to his views, and he will gladly follow you"

One of my favourite quotes from Tohei, I think.

The reason I stopped short of actually recommending anyone was because I simply didn't think it would be appropriate to throw out names of people I haven't personally trained with, or if I jhave trained with them I was never their uke so wouldn't have 'felt' what they were doing. The only one I could personally vouch for would be my own teacher. I've only seen his level of ability in one other guy and that was when I was dragged along by a friend to some CMA workshop in London. I wasn't particularly interested in going because, well I just wasn't. When I got there the rather diminutive old Chinese guy asked me to push on his chest, I felt what he was like, just as others around here have felt what Mike is like or Dan is like etc. Big deal I said to myself, my aikido teacher can do that. Turns out I was wrong at it was actually a big deal after all. I was rather naive at the time. I don't even remember the guys name sadly, it was about 6 or 7 years ago. Apparently he was some rather well respect Chinese master who had come over from Hong Kong if I'm not mistaken, though I may very well be.

Also, I'm not sure about getting rid of the "decorative ki-based explanations", once you've got a grip on the basics they can actually be hugely informative. I would agree that they're not necessarily too great for total beginners though. 'ok now just extend ki. Wadddaya mean how? You just do ok....'

Not in the slightest bit. I've never thought it should anyway.

Hell no I wouldn't reject it.

What if they didn't look like pearls at first and required closer inspection, for all you know someone could've thrown dog mess in your direction. Would you sit there picking through it just to be sure? I wouldn't if it was flung at me in a contemptuous fashion, might do if it was placed kindly and sincerely before me.

I agree with all the above. Not sure about the UFC geezer throwdown though. Maybe that's just cos I find it a bit funny when Americans use the word geezer or bloke Can't help it I'm a Londoner.

I agree, but the "I can do that, just not as well" isn't exactly a total whitewash is it? What if you actually can do that but not as well? What are you supposed to say then? Especially as you can't say to the guy in the video 'thank you very much could you show me more?'
In either case it's just not possible to address in a media like discussion forums. We're all just basically hypothesizing here.

I agree.

That's a straw-man argument. I've already mentioned why I didn't recommend people in this post. Not wishing to publish a list of name-drops does not mean in any way I haven't experienced a truly high level of it. In fact it is so completely illogical to say that that I'm surprised you mentioned it at all. Everything else you've said thus far seems to make a great deal of sense to me until this point.

Also your logic of saying that the reason Dan, Mike, Rob and others teach and talk about this stuff is that they *have* experienced it is totally at odds with your point about how these things being commonly kept secret by those in the know. Ok, well not totally at odds because you're probably referring to asian guys keeping it secret and they're (Dan, Mike etc) not asian. But what of the (non oriental) people who are not Dan, Mike, Rob etc.. who do have this skill and simply have never had any desire to promote themselves because they are quite content to just keep doing what they do with their fairly small group of students? Because they don't particularly wish to meddle in the politics of it all? When would you ever hear about them?

So, you mean that if I experienced someone like CXW and decided to start telling people about it, they would do all those things. Hmmm, so when I stated that in the vid Ellis posted about CXW receiving kotegaeshi that my teacher does that very same thing I was responding in the manner you just predicted. Ok I can see why you would think that, but it seems like I can only be considered to have seen and felt 'the real stuff' if I go to train with someone who is not my aikido teacher. I then have to come back here and rave about how great this guy who isn't my instructor is before people will believe I've felt 'the real stuff'.

Sorry don't like your logic, it's horribly circular and serves only to reinforce your original assumption of 'This stuff isn't in aikido, therefore someone who claims to have felt it in aikido is wrong'

Well, you're quite right, I don't claim a high level of skill, just like you don't. I believe I've mentioned why I titled the thread as I did before now. But I'll repeat it again for you and anyone else. It's called the how-to thread not because I personally intend to use it to hand down internal skill wisdom carved in stone at the beginning of time. But because it directs the conversation in a useful manner, we're not debating here whether Ueshiba had these skills, we're not debating if they are important in aikido we've assumed that both these are true, we're not debating the difference between Daito Ryu aiki and Aikido aiki, and we're not debating whther these skills will help you in the UFC. I think that thus far we've probably succeeded in keeping things fairly well on topic with minimal personal attacks and insults. I never said i was going to rattle of lists of great masters I've trained with, detailed descriptions of the skills. The idea was to encourage sensible discussion. For others to contribute if they felt it appropriate to. You said you can describe what you know in great detail. Well, go on then. Why not do so? Apparently I've tried and failed. Perhaps you should try too I know I'd read it with interest, I genuinely would.

Again I think that's a straw-man argument. Even if it isn't it just boils down to me being a bit optimistic and you not being so optimistic, and has nothing whatsoever to do with my experience of training with people who have these skills. Your logic in suggesting that this is so is patently false and says to me that you're working from the assumpiton I already mentioned 'this stuff is not in aikido, therefore anyone who says it is is wrong' rather than trying to get at the truth of the matter.

Assume if you will for a moment that my own teacher is as good at this stuff as CXW. It's just an assumption nto a claim I am making and I want to make that VERY clear because people will say later that I said he was when they choose to attack me and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. It's an ASSUMPTION. So working from that assumption, I see vids of CXW and go, cool looks like the stuff we do. People then start raving about it (rightly so by the way because it is incredible stuff) and while they are raving away I say yeah, we do that stuff too. Not cos I think we do, but because we actually do (remember this is an assumption we're working from), people immediately dismiss me as knowing nothing because if I really knew something I would surely agree with them that it is amazing stuff (never mind the fact that I actually do agree with them, but they ignore that in favour of dismissing me) and that, wait for it... I can't possibly be right because I do it in aikido, and aikido doesn't do this stuff. Therefore I must be wrong.

I say it is more common than people give it credit, because from where I'm sitting it seems to be that is the case. All my sempai do it. My teacher does it. I do it. Others I've met also do it and all to a varying level of skill, we do it to a varying level of skill because it's really quite complicated stuff and it's very subtle and very difficult to get the details right, y'know, basically what you said.

Nope it doesn't. But does that mean it's not worth saying occasionally and challenging peoples assumptions about what is and isn't 'in aikido'? Y'know, a bit like the way others have been doing, except argued from the point of view of an optimist rather than a pessimist who quickly dismisses aikido as being devoid of these things. I know which one I'd rather be

Actually I think you've made some assumptions about what I think, perhaps an assumption along the lines of 'this stuff isn't in aikido, therefore anyone who says it is is wrong'. I personally think it is a huge puzzle, it certainly puzzles me a great deal.

Amen to that.

Regards

Mike