Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
As for Dave's excellent argument of fundemental dishonesty.
We then must make cultural allowances for Japanese tatamae and honne where lying is...uhm...credible? I have seen it first hand. Though I was raised properly where there is no excuse for lying and no credible reason for doing so-people.... these days are far more casual about it and who it harms. Why its almost an acceptable form of a social contract now. Just like in Japan.
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Dan, you have raised the
tatemae/honne distinction in other discussions. How does it apply to the present discussion of an apparently phony ryu? Are
tatemai and
honne really about
lying?
Peter Goldsbury gives an excellent thumbnail sketch of
tatemae and
honne on Aikido Journal at
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=681. At the beginning of the piece, he states:
Quote:
The Japanese martial arts, as a microcosm of Japanese society as a whole, rests on a trinitarian distinction: omote' and ura'; uchi' and soto' and tatemae' and honne'. Omote is what happens before the face; ura is what happens behind one's back. Uchi is us'; soto is them': the in-group vs. the rest. Tatemae is formal, public, official; honne is informal, private, unofficial. I think that the core of these distinctions is found in all cultures, but in Japan the refinement of these distinctions is quite exquisite: it is an art form.
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I agree with Budd: we should start with honest inquiry.
Jim