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Old 09-15-2008, 09:33 AM   #21
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
First I made a typo I need to fix:

Was supposed to be:
Knowing that [the torsion tube analogy] does NOT help develop the skills in self nor in students.

Sorry about pulling you in Tom. You just happen to be a hyperbolic example. You had no prior martial arts training. You didn't work on a farm or construction, etc. for any amount of heavy lifting. You were just Joe normal guy.

In terms of Sagawa's translated works, the terms "special" and "secret" seem to jump out at me.

So it's not "special" - coming from his perspective where already had a well trained body for internal power and internal skill most likely for MANY years prior to those statements. It seems reasonable that it would be special to most of the rest of us.

But it was considered "secret". I think the point here is that Dan, Mike, Aukuzawa have at least a bit of that secret _as demonstrated by ability_ and are sharing with others.

The body trained in this way throws many things which are thought to be normal "truths" out of the window.

The idea of pushing or pulling someone off balance through the line from navel to anus - out the window. Laughably so really...

The idea that people deliver weight with force - completely out of the window. This kind of training offers the delivery of force with weight held back.

Erick, let's really get this over with once and for all.

If you have at least that amount of skill - to not have a weakness in balance in the line through anus to navel - and can deliver force without weight, then state so now. Otherwise, everyone is going to continue to assume you cannot. But put an end to the assumption. If you cannot do these things state so as well. I'll even go first.

I can do these things minimally. I can withstand a very good push square in the chest when I have 1 leg forward. I can even make the person pushing feel like they are being crushed down with my mental intention (which I assume controls fascia - but maybe it is just magic!) When my feet are should width apart, I openly admit that I have a bit more trouble but I'm getting there. (Note there is no configuration I can come up with where I would expect to successfully off balance Dan or some of his students on that line from anus to navel. I don't even think they would need to be paying attention to me while I tried to push and pull them off balance on that normally weak vector.)

In terms of delivering force without weight. I'm making significant progress here. I know exactly what I'm doing correctly and incorrectly, so I am confident that I'll get it to an impressive level in the very near term (hopefully thing month, maybe a few months, but not YEARS and YEARS for sure). People like Dan, Mike, and Aukuzawa can deliver for without weight. Mike has an infamous shoulder bump. I don't think you can take advantage of such a thing. You just have to avoid it, or know how to do it yourself and meet it head on with your forearm or something. God help you if you try without a trained body for these things.

Erick, I will be shocked out of my chair if you state that you can do either of these things to any degree beyond total beginner. Nothing in aikido teaches these things to any degree. We just learn to avoid those weak lines and how to deliver force with weight that we protect a bit with certain set ups and angles. I sincerely doubt that anything in weight-baring hard physical labor teaches these things either.

This kind of direct request was made earlier. You declined to answer so I believe we assumed you conceded the point that you cannot do it or teach it yourself. Please put an end to assumption on this matter. There is no need to defer with questions about the specifics. You can by all means detail the specifics of what you think best represents the highest degree of your current abilities in these areas.

I'll tell you right now that Gleason sensei uses weight to deliver force. I'll tell you further than he could not withstand a solid push on the line from anus to navel. (Good luck trying to push him on that line. ) I would assume that this will not always be the case as he really likes what I've been showing him from what I learned from Dan. He feels this is stuff is very important to aikido. And I'll say no more about his thoughts until he says more...

Erick, the bottomline is that we all feel that observation and analysis from someone who really cannot do the things is only so valuable AND no one thinks you can do or teach these things. If you can, please explain what you can do - use my example if you like. If you cannot, please concede the point and let us move on discussing this stuff.
Hi Rob:

Well, you're not only pulling Tom Holz in, you're pulling me in. My "shoulder bump" may be infamous as a demonstration, but think for a minute what would happen if I used the same power in my pointy little elbow or fist. I.e., there's a reason I use that shoulder as a demo sometimes (sparingly), but it's mainly so that people can feel what the amount of momentum transfer is. Once they feel that, they are cued rapidly (and subconsciously) about many of the desired components that are involved.

One point I'd make is one that I've made before. I think that these things should be placed back in Aikido proper as soon as possible.... but I mean that in the sense that everyone should have access to the basics. Beyond those basics, I'm not so sure. It's now 40 years after Tohei tried to get the ball rolling with these skills. It's what, about 15 years since the big "ki wars" where the then-ensconced "name" sensei's were able to prevail and convince everyone that there was no such thing as these skills? And it's now about 3-4 years since the topic was reintroduced, again to a lot of fuss and pecking-order noise (I think the archives of 3 or 4 years ago would be an interesting read for some people).

I think also that there are a limited number of people who are interested enough about Aikido and Asian martial arts to find what the "ki" powers are that are used to "aiki" with an opponent's force. Trying to fix all of Aikido is an impossible task and I'd suggest that it's not going to do Aikido any good by wasting effort on people who haven't shown much interest before now. Besides, the effectiveness of these skills is diminished if everyone knows them. It's easy to move around and control someone if you have these skills; if he has them too it's a different ballgame. There's a reason why the information has been limited for thousands of years.


Mike Sigman
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