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Old 09-14-2008, 11:15 PM   #16
Erick Mead
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Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,619
Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I'm not looking to pick on your Erick. ... I mean to confront without being rude. I'm not sure I can achieve it this time, but please consider I'd had good intentions.
Rob -- you are always good. No issue here.

Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I just see two concepts you _seem_ to be hung up on from what I would consider you misreading/misinterpreting Sagawa's words. ... First, MY understanding of Sagawa talking about decades of training - is that once you have a well trained body for budo -which is way beyond what most people in the world have - and which you can develop in about 5 years- you need to put decades of work to take it to level he took it or beyond. That doesn't mean to me that it takes decades of training to get beyond the best of the rest.
Well I am hostage here to Kimura's translator -- but in my copy Sagawa says in his section on "Discourse on Training":
There is no such thing as "special" training. Training must be done EVERYDAY for the rest of your life. That is <the meaning of> "Shugyo." No matter how much muscle you think you aren't using (you're only misleading yourself.) The true execution of Aiki requires an enormous amount of Tanren. It is not easy to attain.
You won't be able to manifest this skill unless you continue tanren of the body everyday for decades.

You must train the body, think and have the techniques "seep out" from the body itself. Even if you train everyday all the while innovating yourself, it will take at least 20 years. Ten years or so isn't nearly enough time.
Your body has to truly be ready; otherwise no matter what you do you won't be able to do "Aiki."
Most people would probably shirk if they knew what my training regimen consisted of.
This martial art is only powerful because it is secret. It is because I know what others do not. If I were to teach this to foreigners that are of a larger build, they would have a definite advantage. Kimura has been training (tanren) on his own, so his lower back and legs are becoming different than others <around him.> I don't often talk about how to train the body, but when I do mention it, Kimura goes out and does it. You can't stop after two or three years. You must continue this and use it to change yourself everyday for the rest of your life.
Clearly -- two elements 1) a secret and 2) decades of tough but NOT "special" training preparing the body to utilize that secret.

Then he cautions:
"Kitaeru" or "train" means that you must train in a manner that allows you to affect the opponent with minimal effort. If you used 100% of your ability (zenryoku) then it means you haven't really trained. The body must be trained until it is a veritable fortress, then should you body-check (tai atari) another person bigger than yourself, they will be sent flying.
However, if you train too much before you grasp the concept of Aiki, then this is no good.
If you will note, I distingushed Harden's assumption about "musclebuilding" in the preparatory aspects of hard labor that I see paralleled in the simlated load training of Aunkai exercises, for example. I have made clear that I, like Sagawa am speaking of EFFICIENT body movement, with minimal muscular input -- not maximum muscular effort. Muscular exhaustion, however, may lead to learning intuitive aspects of minimal effort load movement. Thus, if "every day training" is accomplished in the wrong way -- maximal effort -- it does nothing. Harden, I and Sagawa agree on that point. If it is done in accord with the principles of heavy load minimal effort -- maximal efficiency -- then it does prepare the body in accord with aiki and makes the realization of the secret

Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Tom Holz for instance doesn't have decades of training. He has like 2 years of aiki training There are plenty of other examples, He is just the most obvious one. It's almost hyperbolic.
And what is his work or hobby background?


Erick Mead
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