Ellis Amdur

OK, Mike - one thing is that very prominent members - instrucrtors - of other ryu, such as Yagyu Shingan-ryu and Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, to give only two examples, signed up as Takeda's student. In this period, one only signed up as a student - publicly - when one truly recognized the worth of the other. I'd have to dig through the accounts, but there's quite a few other references to top level martial arts practitioners, who also became members.

Takeda, along with Yoshida Kotaro, were the only two outside people invited to a meeting of the top Yoshin-ryu jujutsu shihan to discuss how to meet the challenge to their existence presented by judo.

For Ueshiba, off the top of my head, Konishi, one of the top founders of a Japanese karate system in the 1930's called Ueshiba a teacher, and Jun-ichi Haga, the absolutely ferocious champion of the emperor's cup in kendo and a master level teacher in iaido stated that Ueshiba was the greatest swordsman in Japan. I'm also aware, in the case of Ueshiba, of some who demurred.

Egami, perhaps the most innovative teacher in the Shotokan world (who had that which was closest to internal type training, stated that he learned it all from Inoue, Ueshiba's nephew).

(I knew how great Wang Shu Chin was when I travelled to Taiwan and every teacher I met who wanted to prove to me how powerful they were stated that they'd beaten Wang. He "lost" so many times!).

I've actually got no dog in the fight that Takeda was the greatest of his time. How could one know. I can think of others who very possibly surpassed him. Or not. But there is no doubt that the respect he had extended far beyond the sectarian group of DR.

OK - now i don't know if this thread has run it's course, but the subject has been hidden in plain sight skills and pedagogy. Shall we return to that?

Ellis