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Old 08-11-2011, 07:39 AM   #70
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,276
Re: The Descent of Aiki

Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I have doubts about my ideas, too. However, if we take Takeda at his word, then he learned from two people according to his eimeiroku and shareiroku: Shibuya Toma of Ono-ha Itto-ryu and Chikanori Hoshina.

Looking at either Ono-ha Itto-ryu, Shibuya Toma, or both, could there be a training methodology that instills some portion of internal structure or skills?

I think certain ryu did have training that sort of rewired the body for internal structure. I also think some people throughout history in koryu had internal training and/or skills.

We are talking internal, so this would be outside any external technique or kata, per se. More like what one trains while performing the kata. I gave the example of the hips and cutting while moving forward. By training certain kata, that might distill in a person some internal structure over time. Did the Ono-ha Itto-ryu that Takeda studied have this kind of training?

In other instances, we need to remember Ueshiba and Sagawa's words. Aiki makes everything better. Aiki works in all martial arts. So, someone who had internal training could pass on that knowledge in any martial art. Did Shibuya Toma have this kind of training?

The theory is that if we take Takeda's word for whom his teachers are, we must look to Shibuya Toma of Ono-ha Itto-ryu and Chikanori Hoshina. What did they teach and in what kind of vehicle? Was Ono-ha Itto-ryu used?

You are referencing unquoted and partially-cited sources here so it is more difficult for me to find the answer to this myself: did Takeda claim that he learned aiki from these two men, or simply that they were the two men he regarded as sensei?

If you want to limit the discussion to the matter of which teachers of Takeda informed his internal skills (excluding from the discussion a lifetime of personal experience and research into sumo, various sword arts, etc from which he may have derived new training methods and skills that were all his own) then either Ono ha Itto ryu had nothing to do with it, or you have a LOT of work to do to show how it could have. I am all ears!
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