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Old 02-23-2006, 02:49 AM   #56
xuzen
 
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Join Date: May 2004
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Re: Why these techniques?

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
i am not arguing that there is a link between aikido and weapons... that is understood from aiki-ken and aiki-jo... it is also generally accepted that tai-sabaki and maai principles are from and developed by weapons... in Budo there are several instances where waza against an armed attacker is demonstrated... there is one section of sword vs sword, but the majority is empty hand waza... no one is challenging the fact that samurai were armed and this was their primary area of expertise, but certainly they also studied empty hand arts Yagyu Ryu is the example here while primarily kenjutsu they also have a area of study of empty hand jujutsu in their curriculum... the issue of which is better or more real, armed combat or unarmed combat, is not the point both were trained for and happened... no one is disputing the facts that Takeda and Osensei studied BOTH DRjujutsu and forms of kenjutsu... no one is disputing that the body movements and maai were derived from kenjutsu and yari-jutsu, but the locks and throws are specifically jujutsu empty hand forms... again i accept a 'close relationship' with weapons arts, but it is clear that the empty hand waza of aikido were not taken from weapons arts and adapted to empty hand... they were in fact empty hand forms from jujutsu applied to empty hand forms in aikido... body movement assuredly comes from weapon arts... joint-locks and throws clearly do not... thus aikido is an empty hand AND a weapons based art that is based on techniques and principles from BOTH empty hand and weapon arts... joint lock, throws and principles from empty hand... body movements and principles from weapons arts... no evidence or argument presented has shown specifically how weapon techniques were adapted and made into joint locks and throws in aikido... thus aikido is not a weapon based art...
OK, Edwin, let me get your points straight:

1) You do not argue, therefore agree that there is a link between weapon and aikido as per aiki-ken and aiki-jo
2) You agree that tai sabaki and maai are from weapon art
3) You agree that Takeda and Osensei are experienced swordsman
4) You accept close relationship between aikido and weapon arts
5) The only point that you disagree is that aikido joint locks and throws are jujutsu derived; hence you disagree totally that aikido is a weapon derived art. (You are a nit picker!)

With 4 points you saying aye and only on one single point you disagree, I think you are nit picking and argumentative for the sake of argument.

Documentation and proof were called by the naysayer to support the argument. They were given by me, and further supported by PeterR's post #45 (I wonder if you did read the link on the post? Very good article actually)

So far, Kancho Shioda viewed that aikido and sword are inseparable. Tokimune Takeda, the scion and heir to Sokaku Takeda also held a similar view. So far two very distinguish and influential people wrt aikido are in agreement with the concept that aikido is a weapon derived art.

Let me be a sport. You argue that aikido is not a weapon based art… kindly show me documented and substantiated proof like what I did previously.

You mentioned your lineage to be that of Yoshinkan and yet your views are different from the conventional school of thoughts. I really wonder if you did indeed learn anything about aikido. Or maybe you did indeed learn, but choose to be nit picking and argumentative for the sake of arguing.

Boon.

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