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Old 06-24-2007, 11:17 AM   #1058
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
Re: Baseline skillset

Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Being immovable is -not- a goal of mine nor anyone who trains with me so I don't know who or what you're talking about. Being all but unthrowable and having the opponent feel like he was hit by a hammer is. Particularly from a clinch or mount. It's about a hard rubber or rubber coated steel cable feel I'm interested in and have attained to a degree. I'm far frome satisfied with my training though. You greatly misunderstand the use of this type of training nad reveal your level of understanding at the same time. It is ALL about practical use. If you shoot for me I don't want to go down, if you try to throw me judo or jujutsu style- I'll want to break your ribs or face, or use your throw to throw you. All that is done specifically by being very relaxed, fluid What do you think I just stand there like some dolt.
Well, I've always figured if you can be immoveable when a huge guy is trying to push you, you can probably do pretty much anything you want with him. I don't mistake it as your goal in practice, but it's something that Mochizuki Sensei didn't even address. As I've said in other posts, I've been surprised to find myself unmoved on occasion when bigger people tried to affect me, which is why I've also said "under the right conditions" I might be able to do some of those things. It would be rather like rain or snow or lightning. It doesn't just happen on demand, but when the conditions are right, nothing else can happen.

No, I have never thought that standing unmoved was your goal. you've made it clear that you work for application--and not application of kata or form, but in the MMA setting, which I know is "demanding" to say the least. We just never trained for immoveability at all--though it has emerged at unexpected moments as an unexpected side-effect from the technical training.

And which does bring us back to technique because when the other guy is matched in strength and speed, technique will decide. It can even decide when the opponent is somewhat stronger, faster and larger, as Mifune proved.

Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Were Aiki-do -to be your goal then this type of training will make Aikido come alive.
That's why I've been interested in feeling what you do.

Dan Harden wrote: View Post
In the limited environment of AIkido this type of training builds what Ueshiba wrote about and suggested was attainable. An undefeatable body and an atemi that can kill. Of course he didn't meant it literally. But the power level is very high.
Actually, I think he did mean literally an atemi that can kill. That's why, when the emperor invited him to demonstrate, he said that "real" aikido kills the opponent at a single blow. Since he couldn't kill his training partner, he didn't want to demonstrate before the emperor. It was okay to "show the lie" to ordinary people, but not the emperor.

And that killing atemi is behind Takeda's statement that "The art of aiki is to overcome the opponent mentally, at a glance, and win without fighting."

It's not a "hard" look, as someone suggested, but it communicates subconsciously to the potential attacker that something very, very bad will happen to him if he attacks, and he chooses not to attack.

Dan Harden wrote: View Post
What you fail to realize- is that there are ways to train your body to take care of itself. Ways to make connections so that incoming forces are nuetralized giving me...more options than you, in the same space and time. When you add to that increased sensitivity. heavy hands, and increased stength, it makes a potent fighter.
Well, of course that's unquestioned. The question is whether it can be done with mere practice of technique. Which puts us back to the court of "Of what level of technically trained person has your method made you the equal?" In other words, do you have "more options in the same space and time" as a judo 6th dan? 7th dan? Mifune?" Not having met you, I can only compare you in my imagination to some of the people I met in Japan.

Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Feldenkras method I am not interested in. I've had two people try to convince me of it. I tossed them and moved them all over the place (not fighting just efficient movement and they could do nothing to me. I decided I'll stick with my own research and training.
Well, that's your prerogative, but like Mike, I think you're confusing the purpose of Feldenkrais. It isn't to make me a better fighter than you. It's to make me better at whatever I do. It's to help you find more efficient ways to do the same thing you're doing. I haven't met anyone whose level of sensitivity or perception could not be deepened by exploring the Feldenkrais movement series.

In one of my classes, I took a student and did some Feldenkrais-based things on the right side of his body, then had him stand up. Everyone in the room was startled because his right side was a good two inches taller than his left side. It was a bizarre thing. His right eye was larger than his left and the right side of his face was more open and younger-looking than his left. There are things in Feldenkrais that no one would imagne without direct experience--and you can't experience those by trying to fight the guy who's trying to show you.

Best to you.


Last edited by David Orange : 06-24-2007 at 11:20 AM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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