Thread: Full Resistance
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Old 08-12-2008, 10:37 AM   #26
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 688
Re: Full Resistance

Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
To often modern Aikido is not really tested against full resistance. The Shodokan school of Aikido and a few would be Aikidoka attempt to test there Aikido techniques against full resistance. They are usually ridiculed for their attempts and not appreciated for their efforts to prove or disprove a technique. The realities of a fully resisting uke makes the Aikido techniques sometimes unrecognizable, sometimes they simply are too difficult to apply. Maybe some techniques simply just don't work. Some in the Aikido world seem to have a difficult time accepting this reality. The below clip shows the Tomiki Aikido randori (toshu randori). Great to see some real resistance vs demonstration. I would love to hear from those who accept this reality and share your thoughts.
Well, I am not sure I agree with you. At least not completly.
Yet I do plan on responding.
Do note one thing - I do not come from Aikikai, rather from Korindo. And from a teacher who teaches Korindo as well as Karate and Karate (all of which he learned to high level seperatly, and is teaching as seperate Martial Arts). Further, our society is closer to over-fighting rather then spirtual, thus my Sensei normally tries to hold the horses from runing wildly rather then encourage them to increase the pace.

Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Salim, while I think I see what you are getting at, I also think there is another way to frame the intent of aikido.
If somebody is actively resisting a particular aikido technique, trying to impose that technique is NOT doing aikido.
If the attacker continually resists, then in essence, the attack itself is continually changing, and the response has to be continually changing, and the result would look like counters and reversals.
This is my main problem with resisting. One should realize the essence they are practicing as they work on it. There is a difference between training Kata to training Randori \ Kyoshu to doing a Shihai. As for the latter, one should also be aware if the victory in a Shihai becomes his goal or is it just another step in the road.
In Korindo we have Kata and Randori\Kyoshu, but no Shihai. I have seen the importance of Randori\Kyoshu and some effects of lack of it, with people coming from other Aikido groups. I have also had the pleasure of training with a Tomiki\Shodokan member and did not have any difficulty.

Chris Hein wrote: View Post
In Aikido the uke never has the desire to "win". So this makes it easy for nage to throw uke, even if uke is "better" then nage. This is why white belts can toss black belts with such beautiful throws. This is why Aikido always looks the way it does, there is no desire for uke to defeat nage.
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
I agree with you totally. Unfortunately most Aikidoka, especially many in the Aikikai organization, think demonstrations are realistic self defense scenarios. They think static movements, flowing movements with grace, is the way Aikido replicates upon every scenario. Not at all the case in a real altercation, not even the case when you are angry with your 4th degree sensei who you try to test.
Most Aikido practice we see is Kata and it is pre-scripted as such. Further, Uke role is very diificult in this Kata - he should provide honest attack and responses limited to the Kata script, and at the same time Uke is learning how to "recieve" and be soft and receptive.
"Kata" is a learning tool. As such, it does not have to be realistic. It has to have methodical merit. Some people delude themselves into different beliefs. I doubt how many of them are veterans.

Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Another example would be when two competitors of equal ability match, but one is seriously invested in winning, while the other really doesn't want to win. Sometimes you see this in competitive martial arts like Judo, but this can more often be seen in a street fight. When one guy wants to win at any cost, and the other just doesn't want to get hurt. The one with less desire will almost always lose, even if he has more ability then his attacker.

The desire to "win" often makes it impossible to use clean, effortless technique. You'll see during the match that if you just force this, or that a little bit, you could achieve victory. Now a philosophical argument could be made that, if you'd just give up your desire to "win", you could always have clean effective technique. That is true, but then you'll have to face the fact that if you ever get into a fight with someone with slightly less ability then you, but much more desire to win, you'll always lose. When your children's lives are on the line that's not really an option, you want to win.
The last section contradicts itself. If lack of desire will make you lose always, what is the point of a "perfect technique"?

For the best of my understanding, the Japanese believed in "empty mind", "wishing while not" and "being ready to die" instead of strong desire to win, as a way of achieving victory. I think this belief \ concept is fundamental in many JMA.

Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
I tested my sensei once. He had to grab me to restrain the array of punches and kicks that were stinging him. I landed several low kicks that he was not able to stop and punched him pretty hard a couple of times to the face. Once he was in close, then he was able to execute an Aikido technique. My weakness was ground fighting and close proximity at the time. He applied what I think was probably a half Koshinage technique, then applied a choke to restrain me. He choked me pretty hard to make me stop. Really nothing like the thousands of Aikido demonstrations in the videos. I asked, what happen to the the crisp, pretty Aikido techniques. He stated there is Aikido for showing the technique fully and there is Aikido for self defense which sometimes needs to slightly adapt to the situation. I think realism is severely overlooked to often.
At least the way I am taught Korindo Aikido. Grabs are not encouraged at all, and one (at 4th Dan level ) should respond to strikes as well as he responds to grabs. Of course, you might be the superior fighter, but that would have nothing to do with the M.A.

Hope my concept came out from my comments. I am not against some resistance while training. I am pro methodical usage of resistance and co-operation. I like Randori, yet ou form of Randori is virtually resistance less, we strive to never resist, instead we wish to be soft and responsive and use any opening to counter. When one tries to resist with strength, he becomes rigid and loses more then he gained. This is the way to win today, but learn nothing. When we practice Randori, our wish is to evolve and improve via learning, not to win.

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