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Old 01-29-2007, 02:22 PM   #273
Erick Mead
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Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,619
Re: Baseline skillset

Mike Sigman wrote:
Erick, no offense, but Aikido does not even come close to using reeling silk methods.
I never take offense from you, Mike. And I did not say that it did. I said that the points of movement and dynamics discussed as being taught by the reeling silk methods are are taught in Aikido in different ways, at least two of them which I alluded to, and are not , as you say, using the "reeling silk method" to teach that form of movement
Mike Sigman wrote:
I would suspect that you're interpreting "reeling silk" in terms of what you already know and understand... the common fault that I keep referring to and the one which has led so much of Aikido into a cul de sac.
Actually, I do not travel on my suspicion, but what his observant student said about what Wang Hai Jun actually teaches:
Nick wrote:
[Describing use of chan si gong ] For example, if I were to consider pulling someone from my right to my left, typically I would push with my right leg to generate linear momentum to my body, which would be added to the strength of my arms. With good timing a significant amount of strength can be generated this way. This is the normal method of generating strength. A chan si gong might attain a similar strength for the same right to left pull by starting on the left (!) leg, using the push with the left leg to generate rotational (coiling) strength by driving the left hip back and right and the right hip forward and left.... In the example above, if I were to pull by shifting from right to left and the person I was pulling kept hold of me and pulled me (using the momentum I had provided their body,) I would have a limited ability to neutralise that pull. Using chan si jin in the above situation I would have much more opportunity to neutralise that pull. I would be better "balanced" in Taiji terms. This allows continuous access to this coiling strength. ... the whole body must coil or spiral as it moves. No part must move too much or too little to maintain optimum leverage. Some parts of the body move considerably more than other parts,
Oh, gee. ---Who was it who went on and on about hips and rotational dynamics some while back??? And energy generation from the uncoiling chains of the limbs ??? Lessee -- who was that again ???

I would call what he physically describes as a straightforward irimi/tenkan movement -- if the feet are fixed to the floor, FWIW. Carrying that all the way through and pivoting -- without lifting or sliding my feet from their initial position -- I can take a hand grab and turn 270 degrees in place and drop my partner in an iriminage, or kokyunage (depending on choice of arm position). I can reverse that position back 360 degrees on the return, if need be (i.e. 90 degrees past my initial kamae, the other way, again without lifiting or sliding the feet. Some call this "tenkan-tenkai" and may teach it as two movements at first -- but it is really one motion. I get the coiling thing fairly well, and that is from very mainstream aikido practice. Frank Doran is one the most effortless examplars of that particular use of the movement whom I have seen.
Nick wrote:
WHJ uses a wide stance circling exercise to train this. (feet slightly turned out) The legs are used in conjunction with the hips to generate a "figure of eight" type movement with the waist.
I believe I even wrote some while back about the nature of the human stability system having the dual eccentic hips gyrating the center of mass in a chaotic orbit shaped roughly like a warped figure-eight, citing to some balance studies as support:

Ignatius bowed out at that point in the earlier conversation, as I recall. Perhaps he will reconsider, now.

My only comment on Mr. Gudge's excellent observation of Wang Hai Jun's chan si exercises is that I would qualify it to say that the legs "follow" or "capture" that natural 'figure of eight' type motion of the baalnce rather than "generate" it, exactly.

I am not saying you are wrong in applying or discussing the Chinese concepts, and never have (except on the "resistance" thing, and then only in reference to aikido).

I am simply saying there many more ways to also be right.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 01-29-2007 at 02:29 PM.


Erick Mead
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