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Old 12-01-2013, 10:54 AM   #49
Lee Salzman
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 406
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Re: It Aint Necessarily So: Rendez-vous with Adventure by Ellis Amdur

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
I'm absolutely clear for myself that Tohei was not "as great as he is often made out to be." He was great in one area - but not in another. Where I am tentative is why - my surmised is that it was a lack of skill at aikido technique based on the statements of two of his younger associates and my counting up of his hours of actual training. That's where I'm tentative - the why. I know of a two accounts where Tohei avoided fights or crossing-hands with top-level people - confrontations that he, in a sense, engendered by public claims of his invincibility. I also note, as I describe in my memories of Kuroiwa sensei of his own experience, that Tohei was happy to put a "hit" out on him, but not deal with him face-to-face.

The Terry Dobson's story? It's just funny - it wasn't a cheap shot on Terry's part- he did what he was told, and Tohei, mind elsewhere, wasn't ready. "hit me shomen -uchi" - and he did.

I think I was quite fair in trying to figure out something that has a larger issue - that training internal power is not, alone, a panacea as martial artists. This is relevant because some, in our small renaissance of training in this area, are doing just that. If one wants to be effective as a martial artist, one needs a delivery system - and Tohei, evidently, was incomplete in this area - something he more or less stated himself. (in his statements that all he paid attention to in regards to Ueshiba was his relaxation, and he ignored the rest).

All I am tentative about is the indisputable fact of Herman. Why? I watch boxers "have a bad day" - this is a fractional difference of timing, or stepping in when they should have circled. This was far beyond that - and is jarring in light of the Aikikai's use of him defeating five judo "champions" simultanously, a story that had to come from Tohei himself.

And BTW, as for someone tearing things down--let's start with this. A brag that one can defeat five big champion judoka at once is quite an "assault" on judo. Regarding another essay, a statement that Shioda learned real aiki from Horikawa rather than his own teacher of eight years of direct instruction, is an assault on that relationship (my essay leading, now, to a far more nuanced idea that he may - just may - have received a nudge through a single contact that enabled him to put some pieces together - and we aren't even sure of that). The latter leads to a fruitful discussion on how important paying attention to the smallest thing one is taught - that we, too, might pick up something that can change - radically our own practice (like Sunadomari sensei radically changing his aikido after hearing O-sensei make a single sentence about the purpose of aikido technique as getting out the sediment of the joints, where others, at the same training, heard nothing important). And in regards the Tohei story, perhaps it may lead some of us to not "throw out the baby with the bathwater" - in other words, that whatever IS we may train, if we love martial arts, we maintain training in technique as well, in some way, on some level. I may tear down myths, but I hope I build up - - - - us.

Ellis Amdur
That's building quite the straw man. Can you simultaneously cite Tohei "in his statements that all he paid attention to in regards to Ueshiba was his relaxation, and he ignored the rest", especially as Tohei also claims that he learned his IP regimen from sources other than Morihei Ueshiba in the first place, yet use this to somehow disprove others claiming that there are sources closer to home of esoteric technical skills and that these are vitally important beyond what Tohei taught?

That said, I would like to echo Chris Li, I don't know who is saying the delivery system doesn't matter. It would be more correct to say the delivery system doesn't matter if there is nothing to deliver in the first place, and as most of us are at no loss for delivery systems, what issue needs to be presented to the community more? Hey, I do both IP/aiki and judo, I'd be the first one to admit I'd be absolutely defenseless against my training partners if I didn't have competency in judo, but they're already teaching me the judo, but certainly not that other thing...
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