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Old 03-03-2003, 11:01 AM   #103
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
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Richard Williams (RichardWilliams) wrote:
I have a VERY good understanding of how hard it is to prove something like this, thanks to individuals like your good self.
I'm just pointing out flaws in your thinking. There have been many.
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I HAVE given you enough information so that you could stop posting for a while and go away and properly, objectively research this subject.
More assumptions.
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Clearly this allows no time for reflection or lengthy research.
What? You think your claims are new or something? That you are the first person ever to make claims without proper research to back them up?
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"It isn't so. I know it isn't so. I have said it isn't so, therefore, it isn't so."
Like I said, provide unbiased reliable research, and I'll listen. You have provided nothing but claims.

QiGong cures cancer!

QiGong practitioners live longer!

I just want valid research. You have provided nothing but anecdotal claims. The problems with anecdotal evidence are legion.
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I have quoted research areas that you could go away and analyze independantly to any input from me.
How do you know what I have done or have not done? See, here you go again, making claims without facts. Once again you present allegations without any facts. I just want facts without allegations. We can work with facts.
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You have not presented counter-research, so how you can possibly be so certain that you are in the right?
I don't have to provide counter-research. It's not my job to prove a negative. I'm not the one making claims. Nor, do I see this as right and wrong. I'd be thrilled if QiGong worked. It would be a million times better than chemotherapy but chemo works X percent of the time. It has evidence to back it up. QiGong has you and others making claims.
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Isn't this what they call presumption and arrogance?
Pot...Kettle....Black....
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i think one thing is true about Qi that everything written about Qi is correct, because this is not a view i hold.
It's about time.
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if someone has a life threatening tumour that is observed by Western medicine, and then this person does not take a single prescription drug, or take an accepted course of Western treatment (chemotherapy) and then some time later the tumour disappears and that person returns to good health through self qigong practice or visits to a qigong healer, then what is going on?
Possibly many things. What about the thousands (hundreds, millions) of people practicing QiGong who have died of cancer? Or, are there none of those? How many people had similar experiences to the author you mention and did nothing? Danger Will Robinson!
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You have two ways to go here Erik. You could accept just this one fact that the Qigong DOES cure serious illness, or can disprove Qigongs relationship to the person being cured.
Like I said, I can't disprove your claims, just like I can't disprove Santa Claus. It's your job to understand what the standard of proof is.

If I don't step on cracks while walking down the street, and don't get hurt, is that because I didn't step on cracks, or because most people don't get hurt walking down the street?
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Now having a go at me is easy. Just write a post calling me a liar.
I've never called you a liar, although you have called me many things and insulted me numerous times.
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Having done this contact the first person who has written an account of such a situation and tell them they are full of it too.
I'm sure they believe it was QiGong that saved them. Just because they say it is so doesn't make it so.
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Keep doing this with everybody that knows first hand the healing power of Qigong. Where will this get you?
Maybe to the truth? You look at them and say it was QiGong. Good for you, but it's not proper research. It's a form of evidence, granted, but by itself it's light years less than the standard.
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God forbid that it might actually be something to do with Qigong.
I've already said it could be. There are tons of benefits to exercise, for instance. I'm simply saying the following:

a) The benefits claimed are not backed with sufficient evidence.

b) We have not determined that the claimed benefits are true.

c) We have not determined that any results claimed were produced by the alleged cause.
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You see, the real problem here is when you argue with me all you can achieve is showing that i am unable to properly argue the case for qigong.
I think that was proven many posts ago. And someone who can out argue me doesn't make the case either.
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This does not too disprove the healing effects of Qigong. If you argue with the accounts i describe you are arguing with a very large number of people. Are we all wrong?
Maybe! A lot of people believe they have been abducted by aliens. At one time lots of people believed in Zeus and Apollo. Do large numbers make their claims true? Lots of people have seen and claimed lots of things. Their claims don't make truth.

Last edited by Erik : 03-03-2003 at 11:13 AM.
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