Thread: Atemi and Irimi
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Old 03-23-2005, 09:09 AM   #22
Dojo: Templegate Dojo, bristol & Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 638
Re: Atemi and Irimi

Mike Sigman wrote:
When you directly attribute a saying to someone, a citation doesn't mean a secondary source for the remark. That's out of the picture entirely. You're obviously not used to the convention, so let me explain it, using this current example.

You say Ueshiba says something, it's important because it goes to the core of what Aikido really is. IF what you say is true and important, though, "irimi and atemi" should be noted in other credible books as the basis of Aikido, which is what you were saying they were. It's NOT in other books in that manner, but the 2 are listed with a group of other basics, like tenkan, etc. Go look... I suggested that. Still, to give you the benefit of the doubt, O-Sensei MAY have said this, although it's odd for such an important point to be missed by Ueshiba K., Tohei, and a number of others. But rather than finding the citation, you find a citation from Tamura *attributing* a remark to Ueshiba. That's a totally different matter because while some people will equate Tamura to maybe Jesus Christ, others will say things like "Oh... Tamura was known in some circles for mis-attributing things". One never knows... and one doesn't want to go off on that tangent, either.

So a secondary citation doesn't help in the search for information. All I have now is the *possibility* that Ueshiba said something like that to Tamura but strangely didn't say it to other uchideshi (do you believe O-Sensei would miss telling something so important to his own son?).... *unless* he was simply lumping ALL entries, including tenkan, into the word "irimi". But we don't know that. And so on. In other words, if you're logically approaching information about a topic, a secondary attribution isn't a sufficient information source, particularly when your whole thesis depends on it. Go back and look.... the suggestions for tenkan, etc., were politely put and the rejection of those ideas was by you. People seem to miss the preliminaries in some of these discussions, but there's always a place where the problems started.


Mike Sigman

Excellent I said you love to argue.

I said what I called me.

Now your trying to to question my source which is Tamura.

As I said previously this is good enough for me. The core or the Aikido that I try to practice is irimi atemi. This is what I've been taught and what I hope to work with.

You can bang on as much as you like in an attempt to smokescreen the facts ...but I've provided my source and you clearly don't like it.

This is your problem not mine.