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Old 02-10-2005, 01:31 AM   #86
Mat Hill
Dojo: Kaminari Shooto Dojo
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 48
Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

I agreed pretty much with everything Jorgen said until this post.
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
When guardpassin, most passes do not address only one leg only AND when they do it's very far from arm manipultion seen in ikkyo.
Ikkyou is not just a technique, it is a principle to get you to the outside of the arm, the outside being beyond the normal range of movement for the arm (ie an extended elnbow or a position where control of the lebow is possible. Now of course the leg bends differently, and trying to pass guard it's going to be a different movement, but the principle of being on the outside of only one limb instead of two... and to me the general principle of controlling the knee (if you're going straight into mount or a GnP) holds in the same way as controlling the elbow. Soooo...
Also the purpose is totally different - in ikkyo one tries to manipulate ukes body through the limb. In guardpassing one tries to pass the guard
of course you can say that the purpose of guardpassing is to pass the guard, but you pass the guard by let's see... manipulating uke's body through the limb...!

It's a bit of a niggling nitpick, because yeah, I can see what you're saying. Personally I don't think aiki in general has answers for groundfighting. Why? Well Ueshiba didn't practise it AFAIK. The historical precedents for aiki (an art designed for samurai, to allow them to draw and use their swords, or to disarm someone who was armed when you weren't especially from seiza) did not require it.

My nitpick comes from aiki in general being taught as a series of techs rather than as groups of principles. If you follow aiki principles on to the ground, you may arrive at something like BJJ. (And no, I'm not saying this has happened or is likely to happen or is desirable or anything: but sticking to your opponent, blending/merging, dropping your weight through your centre, manipulating the body through the extremities, relaxing, going with your opponent's tech until you can take control... all very general but could be JJ groundwork or aiki... no?!)

Just because your sensei trains/teaches groundwork, doesn't mean it's aiki. It means he's trained in something else! Of course, neither does that mean aiki principles can't be incorporated into groundwork, but in answer to the general question 'Does aiki have answers to groundwork?' it is somewhat facetious to say 'My teacher teaches groundwork and he's an aiki teacher therefore aiki has groundwork' when generally IT DOES NOT!

When being on bottom of mount ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo etc are completely unusable because you are only able to use your hands for these kind of techniques. And as everyone knows in Aikido we always try to do a technique with our whole body. Which in case of being mounted is pinned between oneself and the opponent.

I have been able to use Aikido wristlocks when breaking posture from guard. But no way can it be considered "doing Aikido" or doing nikkyo, sankyo etc... It's just cranking on wrist a bit similarily as in Aikido...
Don't agree with this either. Working your guard is all about working your hips or working into a position whereby you can do so. Shrimping, bridging, a basic armbar from guard... try doing those without using your hips...!

I have used sankyou from guard successfully, by wriggling my ass into a position where i could put my hips into it. He tapped in less than a second, with his body structure broken backwards just like in a vertical sankyou, in fact better, because from mount he couldn't move his hips to get out of the way. Worked it a couple more times till they got wise to it, but it's perfectly possible (never rolled with a good BJJer but my teacher who's a pro-fighter has fought many... not saying it would or would work against them, but I'd be more than happy to try it! It was in a shooto class, half of which is groundwork taken from BJJ, JJJ and Graeco-Roman).

Plus, and this one's a very wee nitpick, but if the action is an aiki-like movement getting an aiki like wrist position, which is not found in many other martial arts, and you can do it because you've trained in aiki, does that mean that because you don't use your hips you are not doing aiki?! I don't think so.
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