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Old 05-28-2001, 05:06 PM   #26
Dojo: Sand Drift Aikikai, Cocoa Florida
Location: Melbourne, Florida
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 824
Originally posted by ca
it is a lot harder to change the predators, even more difficult to rid the entire world of them. The best defense against them is to change the behavior of their prey. [/b]
Your right the best defense against them is to change the behavior of the prey, but as long as there is a predator it will search for prey and make some if it has, too. Predators don't die meekly.

We can address the predators actions through civil and criminal law. The predators are the ones responsible for the injuries they cause. A victims is not at fault for being vulnerable position in their life. Stop blaming the victim. Yes, victims need help, but if they don't realize they are in a bad position then why should they leave?

Now, I will agree the the "victim mentality" does exist. What I mean by "victim mentality" is that there are people who play the role as an excuse not to get better. This is wrong behavior. It is dysfunction and I will support you wholeheartedly in telling them to shipshape or ship out. But this is different from a real victim. A real victim can not necessarily help themselves out. A real victim has suffered a harm and is yet to reach the point where they can bring resolution to their problems.

Taking advantage of their power does not just involve "you do this and I'll promote" it also includes a hostile atmosphere towards the women. The first is usually clear and cut. It is the second that is more subtle and harder to see and prove. (the proof is substantial and severe offensive behavior -- for sexual harassment in the workplace) But this guy still is in a position of authority -- a sensei over a student. Anon's case seems to come closer to the later. She found the behavior offensive because she said "no" the first time and then he still made advances. She wants to study aikido and she doesn't have many options in her area in places to go to train. If she were in a bigger city the choice of other options would make sense. Maybe she doesn't want to learn another martial art either.

You seem to be questioning or trying to make the point where we draw the line. I am saying that someone who is in a position of authority has power over another person, a subordinate, and that they should not use their position to assert or imply impropriety. A customer in a market place, a person who buys music, or goes to the movie theatre are not subordinates to the marker owner, musician or actor. However, the parishsioners of a paster, the choir members of a choir director, the student of a teacher are subordinants and they should not date. Now, if this relationship should no longer exist then they can date.

Let's go through your hypotheticals...

if you feel a sensei should not date any students, then of course you feel a single minister, or church board member, or choir director shouold not date parishoners.
Yes. I believe that is reasonable. I believe as long as that person is in a position of authority over another person, they should not be dating people they have authority over.

But let's break it down. Does a choir director have control over all the parishoners? No, only those who are in the choir or perhaps trying out for the choir. So the relatiohship for comparison would be choir director/ choir member. So the choir director can date a non-choir member.

The minister generally has authority over other members in parish so yes no dating parish members.

And finally the church board members. I'm not sure who they have control over. the answer to that will give you you answer.

Also, there should be no dating anyone who owns a business.
Think what you wrote here and think what I wrote. I said people who have position of authority over a subordinant. If the "anyone" is an employee, yes. If the "anyone" is a customer, no. The difference is the amount and the ability of control one has over the other. So a business owner may date their customer.

Hmm, but the problem in martial arts students are very often subordinants as well as customers. So the better parallel would be more like a teacher/ student where the student submits to a certain amount of authority over you.

This has been done in universities, where you can easily drop out of class. For example when I was in undergrad teacher/ student dating was barred by the State of Florida because of the problems that we are discussing at the moment. Potential problems start with what appears to be innocent dating but things get bad once people start saying, "no." If it is discomfort with the sensei, in this case. Your training still is affected.

Oh, and no dating anyone who owns a market if you shop there.
Nope, a market owner has very little control over their customers except to prevent shoplifting. So a market owner and customer may date.

Hmm, if you listen to a musician, you cannot date them.
You really like slipperly slope arguing don't you? There is absolutely no control of the musician over the person who listens to their music. Of course they can date.

The better analogy for musicians would be the music producer and musicians. The music producer would have some control over the musicians -- the ability to promote themselves and to make a living. Sure they could go elsewhere but they could get blacklisted as well. But this is more like an employer-employee relationship.

Also actors whose films you like.
You really have yourself out on limb with this one. I would be lucky to meet any actors I see in movies much less date them. But that actor has no control over me. I have given that actor no control. So hypothetically they can date.

The sensei does not have power over anyone who is not in desparate need of counselling, and those folks can create a sense of control that is not there.
The sensei does have control over all of his students and he has a certain amount of responsibility in how her should treat those students. The "power" the sensei has is the knowledge, skill, and abilities that you do not have. The "power" the sensei has is in expecting that people don't question him which is commonly done because people think it has to do with Japanese culture.

When we bow to sensei and say "onegaishimasu" we are saying we respect your authority and please teach us. Of course the screwed up sensei in serious need of counseling will forget to add when he bows to the students, "I promise to respect you and your abilities."

When the respect goes both ways there are no problems. But those who take advantage of what they know and what you don't know will use their female students as a dating mill at best.

You see I have a problem with the sensei in serious need of counseling. In the dojo, they have the authority, and as good students we submit to it because we don't know what they do. Like I said if the respect goes both ways you won't find a student trying to play out their issues in the dojo or find a sensei playing out his issues in the dojo.

If in anon's case this sensei is playing out his issues in the dojo by using his female students as a dating mill rather than actually concerned about what they learn, then I say it is a problem.

I don't think it is the women with the problem, there may be some playing out their issues, but they still do not deserve to be hit upon and used. A good sensei would see this and AVOID such relationships from developing.

When I go to a dojo I don't expect to be hit upon, by the sensei. When I go to work, I don't expect to be hit upon by my boss. When I go to school, I don't expect to be hit upon by my teachers. When I go to church, I don't expect to be hit upon by the pastor. If it happens, of course I say no. But if it continues to happen and that "no" is not respected I have a major problem with that. That sounds to be the case with Anon-- she said "no" and he continued his advances. She asserted herself and addressed the situation. It was clear that it would not resolved. Do I remember correctly that this dojo does not have women past 6th or 5th kyu. That to me is an indicator that this sensei is doing something wrong. How wrong is it? All we know it just is simple impropriety nothing criminal or major enough for civil action.

(As an aside: I believe in some business there is the one "no" rule between co-workers. You may ask some one out once but it must stop at that. But they still can not allow a hostile working environment (serious and substantial offense behavior) to exist.)

Anon might be able to report this to the better business bureau or speak with them and see if any other reports have been filed. Also, Anon, I don't think there is much else you can do unless something more serious is going on. Colleen is right though, you can't help people who don't want it.

[/quote]I just think if we as women (as the complaints came from women) want to be taken seriously, we need to be responsible for our own actions. [/quote]

Of course we should be responsible for our own actions, but we should be respected and treated in a dignified manner as well. And those who wronged us should be held responsible for their actions as well. A womanizer should not be forgiven because some women don't walk away from it.

Anon, one thing I have been told in learning "self-defense" and in preventing potentially bad behaviour is to trust your instincts. We can still and argue the merits of dating or not dating, but that is all hypothetical since we really are not there with you. Follow your gut, it is most likely right. "Women's intuition" is called "women's intuition" for a reason. Or for you guys, that "gut feeling" is called a "gut feeling" for a reason. Trust it.

Good luck,
Anne Marie Giri