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Old 01-06-2005, 10:33 AM   #63
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
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Re: aikido vs jiu-jitsu

Roy, I think we are actually more on the same page mentally - it looks like I'm just not quite there in my ability to express what I'm thinking - sorry.

If you re-read my last post and consider the two people are 10 feet away, then kaiten nage and dirty tricks on the entrace (the set up) makes sense as a real possibility. If you are reading my last post about this and you have it in your head that the tackler is already 10 inches away then YES you are 100% correct - sprawl like there is no tomorrow.

As I was trying to say, it all depends on how the shoot is set up, and how much experience the defender of that shoot has with dealing with such set ups. I'm not saying that there are no good set-ups, but there are certainly bad ones and experienced defensive movements can make good starts end badly.

I have found that just changing my stance from say right leg forward to stepping out laterrally with my right leg and shifting my hips so that my right leg is now the back leg gives tacklers a problem. I know they can switch to something else - but I didn't say an unsolvable problem. The point is that we can and should experiment with these things - but in a fair way. I serious had someone get their head to my chest - I was still stable and I grabbed his entire ear. We weren't in combat and we like each other but it instantly degenerated into "if you rip my ear off I'm going to really hurt you" which might have happened but I still say people bleeding from the head are too kamakazi-ish for me to deal with appropriately at my level. We both let go, and stayed friends - but I don't want to play with him anymore - which is a shame.
I suppose in sumamry, I feel just as strongly about not allowing dirty tricks once you have superior/dominant position as I feel you should have to defend yourself from dirty tricks (even if you know your training partner won't use them) on your way towards getting superious position.

Some slogans are useful like "position before submission" and "attack the base" they have no negative components - please use them and spead them. However, other slogans like "BJJ is aikido on the ground" and "90% of all fights end up on the ground" are not entirely true, and really serve no purpose other than to get people to train at BJJ schools instead of aikido schools and that doesn't seem fair. We are not saying "Aikido is BJJ standing up" and "90% of all SD situations never go anywhere near the ground" or whatever.

I don't really think there is plot to take potential MA students from one art to another, but it seems like the reason people keep defending their favorite slogans is that they have attachment to them - despite knowing they are not entirely true.

Now, I did really like the movement versus pressure distinction in orientation. I think pressure and movement orientations are a good way to describe the kind of touch necessary to develpe past the typical aikido level of blend just enough to crank the person. (ju tai beginning followed by ko tai middle and ending).

I do agree that you have to change your focus while you progress in any art, but that wasn't what I was talking about as far as giving up what has been working entirely to get a new much more sophistocated approach. It's hard to describe. I know that BJJ players go through some of that initially, but I have not seen anyone continue that kind of development. I hope to meet someone who has - who is willing to show me without just knocking me unconscious out of boredom with my ground skills.

I love MA. I plan to do many more. Wrestling is fun, so is arnis. I love kung fu. I just don't want to hear that any of them are aikido on the ground, or with sticks, or with back spinning jump kicks.

Rob
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