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Old 12-31-2004, 01:51 AM   #11
batemanb's Avatar
Dojo: Seibukan Aikido UK
Location: body in UK, heart still in Japan
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,031
Re: Locking/pinning as pain submission...

Xu Wenfung wrote:
Hi Bryan,

Yesterday I took your argument to my sensei. So here goes...

I said: "Sensei, some guy I met over the internet says that strong grip gives uke something to fight against and may actually make the technique more difficult"

Sensei said," Is it true? Lend me your arm, and resist with all your might."

I thought, "Oh Sh@t, why I always get into such trouble. Bryan you owe me a megapint Guiness for this"
Hi Boon,

Anytime, hope to share it with you soon. Reminds me of the time someone asked one of my early teachers "what`s nikkyo" Don`t do it my friend, and don`t go and tell your Sensei that some guy on the internet said..........

Xu Wenfung wrote:
He used katatemochin hijiate kokyunage to illustrate. First he used a loose grip, not much of a technique I thought until he atemi the elbow joint, I have to go forward.
I did say soft grip, not loose , there`s a subtle difference. Having said that, I am thinking more as I am writing and maybe there isn`t that much of a difference between my soft grip and your vice grip. The problems with interpretation of written text, my thoughts when I originally read your post had an image of hunched shoulders squeezing hard as he gripped. My image of a soft grip (not loose) is much like that of the old O-Ring test, do you know it? See here . This leads me to think that there actually might not be much of a difference between what I am aiming for and what your Sensei is doing. If you are soft and relaxed in your grip it can still be vice like.

Xu Wenfung wrote:
Then he said, I will now try the strong grip. The same technique, he grip very hard, twist my arm, very tight, and difficult to move and followed by a atemi to the elbow. At the last moment he let go and whew I can flip over...
I`ve got that original image back reading this text I go back to my original statement about giving uke something to fight against, what I didn`t say was that even though you have something to fight against, doesn`t mean you can . If he is stronger than you, and/ or he has moved correctly (I did say that I probably hadn`t at this point), then it is unlikely that you can resist.

Xu Wenfung wrote:
Loose grip, tight grip, I still flip forward. Insert <Borg voice...>... Resistance is Futile...< end of Borg voice>

So much to learn, so little time. Sigh.

My post didn`t say that it was wrong to have a vice like grip , just that I am at odds with it because I feel that it gives uke the possibility to resist, especially if I have not moved or done everything correctly, there becomes a point that the technique may not work or I make it harder for myself to make it work.

I like this internet knowledge base, I can glean a lot of information from it, the hard part is interpreting the info in the context it is given, and even harder to convey ones own thoughts in a way that they are interpreted as intended. So much easier to be in the same room to explain with actions, don`t you think ?

Hope you have a very happy new year my friend, and best wishes to everyone else reading my babble.



A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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