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Old 05-02-2001, 05:04 AM   #12
Dojo: ShinToKai DoJo of AiKiDo
Location: Brazil
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 355

Originally posted by Sam
WHEN ALL THE SHIHAN ARE GONE:I believe (help please PeterR?) that what should happen is each shihan is prepared by their shihan for the task. Mr. Tomiki trained our current shihan so that nothing was lost in transmission. Therefore each shihan has the knowledge of the last.
Therefore I believe that standards now at hombu are the same as forty or fifty years ago.

KAMI : each student learns a part of the Aikido taught him by the Founder and so on. That's why, Ueshiba's son Aikido was different from Ueshiba O-Sensei's Aikido and the Aikido of the students of the late Doshu(Yamada, Saotome, Nishio, Tamura, etc...) are all diferente from the Doshu. Practitioners of Tomiki also differ from the Aikido taught by the Founder in some aspects (competition, for instance). And so on and on...

QUOTES : [KAMI: 1. I believe that the uchideshi system is still very much in use
2. I am disappointed you have used this thread as an opportunity to bash randori.
Is a negative statement concerning competition in a forum with tomiki followers not a little competetive?]
KAMI : 1. No. There isn't anymore. In the Uchideshi system, the student lived with the master, learning just from him. Even the so-called "Ueshiba's Uchideshi at Hombu" (Yamada, Saotome, and others) were really "Hombu's Uchideshi" under Kisshomaru Ueshiba Sensei and Koichi Tohei Sensei.And even so, they couldn't reightly be considered "Uchideshi", since they learn from many masters and not just from one. I know of no uchideshi system today. If I'm wrong, please correct me-.
2. You demonstrate a prejudice against me. I have stated previously to Peter Rehse that "I'm done with this discussion", since I'm not competitive and I don't feel the need to win any discussion. And nowhere did I "bash" competition. If you have proofs to the contrary, please show me them. On the contrary, I said : QUOTE["The introdution of competition would not improve the art but it would surely improve COMPETITION. Very good, if you want to change the art into a sport (not good or bad, just different).] Allow me to say that I see no "bashing" in that.
I had long discussions with Peter Rehse but, even if he got impatient with me, after some time, it was not for any lack of elegance on my part but on his perception that "I wasn't accepting his explanations". I disagree with competition. That's all. It's a right that everyone in this list have : to express his opinions. Not rudely but in an educated form. But Peter Rehse himself admited, also previously, to be a little "sensitive"...and so, it seems, are some Tomiki people. Don't be! Read without prejudice and admit other people might have different opinions and the right to express them without aggression.
My question wasn't about competition, it was about japanese Shihan and what would happen to Aikido when they all die. The subject of competition was asked by the beginner of this thread and commented "en passant". You changed the subject but a part of your answer (correct and perfect transmission to his students) does not satisfy me, for the reasons I stated above, i.e., no transmission is correct and perfect, all is flux, martial arts must progress and by progressing become a little diferent from the way Shihan taught).
I hope we may avoid prejudice and try to be elegant in our debate. If you do not find that possible, I'll bow out, since I'm non-competitive.

Last edited by Kami : 05-02-2001 at 05:17 AM.

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
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