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Old 10-12-2004, 08:33 AM   #54
L. Camejo
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Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

Daren Sims wrote:
Larry, I think this is more of an assumption! Don't jump to the defence of whoever you think I'm attacking unless I have actually attacked them! (I'm working round to that...)
Hi Daren,

I think you assume much to think that I am jumping to defend anyone or anything. My concept of "What is Aikido" is a continuously evolving thing. I don't think even its founder would have defined it as the same thing all the time. As a manifestation of Yin/Yang interaction it is by nature infinite in expression while always exhibiting certain core principles. Of course many don't even agree on what these core principles may be, but it still does not mean that one who has not walked in their shoes can define what they do or not do as Aikido. Just my opinion.

As you said it is a free country and I am expressing my opinions as anyone else. If you feel attacked I am sorry as that is not the case, I'm merely seeking answers and challenging things that seem to have openings.

Daren Sims wrote:
However I have seen some things passed off as aikido that for me were most definitely not and which come much closer to the phrase I am now famous for ...'a mish mash'.
So have I, and I agree that there are mish mash so-called systems out there that are called a lot of different names, including Aikido and it's paiful to look at. I guess I try not to be too judgmental since the one thing I've realised is that I don't know everything.

Daren Sims wrote:
I'll add that length of training is no guarantee of knowledge either but thats a side issue for now. (although my techical base comes from Pierre Chassang who has trained since 1952 so thats long enough for me!..).
I agree with that. As someone's signature here says - "Perfect practice makes perfect". In this light one can train for one year or a century in incorrect methods, it does not change the fact that they are practicing bs.

Daren Sims wrote:
My point is that the balance taking is primary to kotagaeshi. Force and pain compliance alone are not aikido.
Now this is far more precise as compared to your inital statement. Makes perfect sense now.

Daren Sims wrote:
Again - this is not a specific attack on anyone. More of a response to being termed a purist as if it implies narrow mindset. Again I stand by this statement. I have been very fortunate in the training I have received to be able to discern what is and what is not good aiki to a reasonably high level. Pain compliance alone does not qualify as aiki.
Personally I have not met any purists in anything who don't have their heads buried very very far up their own a$$, but when someone can experience the breadth of what is out there and maintain their purism not because of cloistered myopia, but as a result of truly having seen the myriad of expressions and knowing what they do to be true, then this is the person I deem a true and respectable purist. Of course since martial arts like Aikido come out from other martial arts and in fact are a combination of concepts from these styles and other things, how do we distill what is pure? Is the dojo who practice 80% bokken and jo less pure than the one who practices 60% meditation and suwari waza?

Daren Sims wrote:
No matter how much pain there is...if the kamae is incorrect, shisei is out of balance, maai is wrong, if there is no irimi or if any of the bases is disproportionately represented then it is either not good aiki or not aikido at all.
Well I agree it may not be good "Aikido" (the budo). Being good "Aiki" (the budo concept) is another thing entirely, the latter being a concept that has been applied outside of "Aikido" for centuries before its creation. One may be able to apply Aiki without irimi for example, it depends greatly on the dynamics of the particular situation.

Back to kotegaeshi and kuzushi - I've encountered schools where the kotegaeshi starts with the normal forward kuzushi bringing Uke off balance forward to one side, and the twist is done taking the arm back towards the shoulder of Uke and past it to effect the throw, so his hand goes back in the direction from which his body just came, along the same line. Seagal did this in his "Aikido demo" at the beginning of Nico. Imo when one brings the wrist back towards and in line with the shoulder of Uke he infact negates the effect of the kuzushi that takes Uke off balance while moving forward. During the interval when the wrist is taken back towards Uke's shoulder and body Tori actually restores Uke's posture after having broken it a split second earlier. At this point Uke can effectively negate the technique by tai sabaki or muscular tension.

What do you folks think? The way we do it is to constantly move our body in the direction of the kuzushi while twisting the wrist, so the effect of the wrist twist on Uke's body is maintained but Uke is not restored to balance in the midst of it by Tori.

Just some thoughts.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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