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Old 10-12-2004, 06:46 AM   #53
Dojo: Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 659
Re: Kotegaishi weakness?

Larry Camejo wrote:
Of course this is based on the assumption that you can identify a mish mash when it is placed before you by someone who has been training for a much longer period of time.
Larry, I think this is more of an assumption! Don't jump to the defence of whoever you think I'm attacking unless I have actually attacked them! (I'm working round to that...)

However I have seen some things passed off as aikido that for me were most definitely not and which come much closer to the phrase I am now famous for ...'a mish mash'.

I'll add that length of training is no guarantee of knowledge either but thats a side issue for now. (although my techical base comes from Pierre Chassang who has trained since 1952 so thats long enough for me!..).

Heres what I wrote originally

Daren Sims wrote:
Point 2....Force uke down? Using pain compliance / threat of a wrist break?

I don't think agree one bit. If you take ukes hand away from his centre using tai sabaki, tenkan, tora fume movement or whatever floats your boat and at the same time remain centred yourself behind the point of contact you will achieve a dominant position without the primitive requirements you suggest.

Sure pain and bone breaking are effective...but call them by their correct name...jujitsu.

This is not Aikido.
My point is that the balance taking is primary to kotagaeshi. Force and pain compliance alone are not aikido.

I am happy with this - It is a free country (well it is where I am) so everyone is entitled to their opinion of this.

Daren Sims wrote:
If a purist is someone who feels strongly about a mish mash of ju jitsu, fighting and whatever being passed off as Aikido then, yep I'm a purist.
Again - this is not a specific attack on anyone. More of a response to being termed a purist as if it implies narrow mindset. Again I stand by this statement. I have been very fortunate in the training I have received to be able to discern what is and what is not good aiki to a reasonably high level. Pain compliance alone does not qualify as aiki.

No matter how much pain there is...if the kamae is incorrect, shisei is out of balance, maai is wrong, if there is no irimi or if any of the bases is disproportionately represented then it is either not good aiki or not aikido at all.

at the end of the day you can put someone on their rear with a may well be effective but for me it is not aikido.

PeterR - thank you. I welcome healthy debate and hope to learn from the experience.

I agree that the presence of pain does not invalidate a form as aikido. If this were so it wouldn't be the joy that it is. as long as it remains secondary to the balance taking.

I have been taught that aikido is to bring yin and yang together to release ki. This can take infinite forms.

So despite my strong assertation regarding pain v balance taking I hope I am open minded and recognise fully there are many ways to skin a cat...or uke!


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