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Old 05-10-2003, 08:33 PM   #17
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,426
Reply to Mr. Goldsbury

Dear Mr. Goldsbury,

In attempts to "inspire" you to please provide your longer post, which I look forward to reading, I'd like to be a little more specific about how I was using the terms "real", real, and "ideal" in my initial post. Undoubtedly we will, if we push this semantics far enough (and one may have to), indeed have to get into Plato, or at least make firmer distinctions between the subjective and objective experiences of "reality" ala your favorite philosopher, but I'm hoping/wondering if some working definitions won't do the trick.

Specifically, I was using the term "real" to denote how most folks seem to be using this word when they are talking about the inclusion of attacks from various/other arts - as a kind of statement that, for example, tsuki, yokomen-uchi, and shomen-uchi, are somehow deficient and/or incomplete. That is to say that I was trying to capture that part of the "real attack" position that states that "real attacks" are what one is most likely to experience in the street; that tsuki/yokomen-uchi/shomen-uchi are not attacks one is most likely to experience on the street; and that holds that dojo training is about a "one to one" relationship between the street and the dojo or about substitutionary scenarios (e.g. "The experience of the right cross in the dojo is meant to and can correspond directly with the experience of the right cross in the street." OR "The experience of tsuki in the dojo only prepares you for when folks attack you with tsuki on the street.")

I was using the term real (without quotation marks) to make a distinction between the knowable (the "ideal") and the unknowable, the unrepeatable, and the undeterminable and which manifests itself only in the immediate present (i.e the irruption of the infinite into the manifest) - that which philosophically represents that infinite potential of what one may actually face within any given moment (in the street or in the dojo - though in this case I leaned more to the environment of the street since this is the side the "real attack" position tends to lean on in their rejection or partial rejection of tsuki, yokomen-uchi, or shomen-uchi).

This section of my original post perhaps sums it up:

"After all, if "real" is determined by what one would mostly confront on the street, as the wisdom goes, then perhaps one hasn't been in too many street situations if he/she holds this position. For, as any law enforcement agent, and/or seasoned street rat would tell you, in the street anything is possible, and that alone is what make it real: its infinite nature, its never-ending and unknowable potential."

As for "ideal" - I am using it to denote that which is not real, not of the "street" - that is to say - that which is without the full infinite potential of reality - that which can manifested at will in the dojo.

I think this passage from the original post re-states that position:

"An ideal is an ideal simply because it can be duplicated and repeated and ultimately predicted and determined. The street, that is to say, the chaos of violence, lends itself to no such type of thinking or acting. What you face in the midst of violence is what you face. It is beyond judgment, distinction, and discrimination."

It was my intent with these working definitions to show that tsuki/yokomen-uchi/shomen-uchi could not so easily be dismissed as either inefficient, incomplete, or unrealistic. In short, and perhaps I should have said this up front, "tsuki is both as unrealistic/ideal/"realistic" as is the right cross when it comes to kihon waza.

Hope that helps with your coming post.

Thank you,

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