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Old 08-07-2014, 10:07 PM   #168
Erick Mead
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Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,619
Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Phi Truong wrote: View Post
just venturing a guess, because he's the guy in the picture that went flying? his body and his experience afterall. essentially, you are telling him what he experienced.
No, Phi, I am not denying him his experience. I am telling him there is actual real physiology in what happened to him,and that he was neurologically incapable of perceiving correctly at the time that it happened or in the order that it happened. Conscious perception and voluntary reaction are way late to the party -- which -- if you think about it -- makes sense in terms of a superior martial exploit.

Monosynaptic reflexes -- one synapse jump involved (muscle spindle and tendon stretch reflexes, ) =~ 25-50 ms latency

Polysynaptic reflexes (contralateral and correlated upper/lower reflexes, nociceptor flexor reflex,Jendrassick maneuver, nikyo, sankyo) ~75-100 ms latency.

Conscious perception latency ~75-100 ms

Voluntary action latency ~75-100 ms

In a polysynaptic exploit (e.g. -- nikyo ) the action latency is just at the cusp of latent perception as it happens, but latent voluntary reaction is still far behind. But when a monosynaptic (spinal reflex) commences an action -- it has already been happening for half or two-thirds as long as it takes for you to notice the stumulus that caused it, another 25-50ms to notice the reflex action that is continuing to happen. Whatever voluntary reaction you decide to do takes ~ 100 ms from the stimulus that prompted it -- but then you also realize the reflex is happening and that voluntary action is countermanded or modified in transit.

By that time -- Mr. Burke was already airborne. 50+100+100= 250 ms + travel time to 20 inches off the deck -- give or take. That's a slow punch.

So -- even for a trained person -- who is legitimately faster, and on the lower end of the timing scale -- the order of event, action and perception is:

Stimulus = 0
Polysynaptic reflex = 75ms
Awareness of stimulus = 75ms
Voluntary motor action = 150ms
Awareness of reflex = 150ms

In other words, you become aware of the polysynaptic reflex occurring just as your voluntary action occurs (now seen as completely wrong since it could not take the reflex action into account). Psychologically, our mind plays tricks with these latencies. We see what we expect to see -- we feel what we have come to expect to feel. But perception (anyone's perception) is -- neurologically and quite literally -- out of order with respect to the objective sequence of events and the right corrective action. since the awareness of the reflex and awareness of stimulus happen at the same time, it seems simultaneous -- even though it isn't.

This is confusing and difficult, but not as much as the monosynaptic situation

A monosynaptic latency though is on the order of 20-45 ms -- call it 30 ms =0.03s, twice as fast as, or even better, as the visual or pain flinch (polsynaptic) reflexes at ~75 ms).

Stimulus = 0
Monosynaptic reflex = 30ms
Awareness of stimulus = 75 ms
Awareness of reflex = 105ms
Voluntary motor action = 150ms

You find yourself aware of your body doing things contrary to and before what you thought told it to do, but because of this you begin to try to negate or modify your voluntary action -- before it has even happened. You can't do anything about it, but the now counterproductive initial voluntary action still takes place even though you are now aware it is no longer tenable because of the reflexive action. You flounder. You pop. You seem powerless. Your body no longer seemingly obeys.

That is what makes this so powerful.

So I can say -- with some precision -- that I know a BIT more about what did happen, than Mr. Burke was physically capable of perceiving when it happened to him. Unless he was aware of these facts, and meant to raise some other objection than merely mocking laughter.


Erick Mead
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