We're talking nikyo, right. Only the most painful lock on the planet ...
If you can control them with a nikyo shape without pain, all well and good, but why even bother with nikyo shape then ... just push them over using your off-balancing skill.
Well, that's the discussion, isn't it? If, as Gozo Shioda said and taught, Morihei Ueshiba's nikyo didn't hurt, then how would that happen and why would that be useful? Those are interesting questions for me.
I mean, why bother with any of this stuff if you're not interested in the details of how things work? Better to hit them with a two-by-four.