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Old 11-29-2013, 12:47 PM   #33
oisin bourke
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Dojo: Muden Juku, Ireland
Location: Kilkenny
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 359
Re: Horikawa teaching Shioda?

Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Oisin - Fascinating information regarding the scroll - I'd love to see the article. That may change my thoughts on things, depending on what the scroll is (surprisingly often, people receive honorary scrolls for one reason or another).

You write:
True - but Shioda learned Daito-ryu from Ueshiba Morihei. That's really my point.

I also think its stretching a point to say he "learned a technique." Maybe so. But if, for example, I was to visit you and say, "I saw you do "x" - would you do that to me?" and you once, do some subtle bit of aiki --ONCE - I could very well notice, "that was different." But it's doubtful that I would instantly understand it, note how it was a new element absent from my training to date, and that I'd immediately be able to incorporate it in my art. (Of course, you might reply, that's because you aren't a fraction of the martial artist Shioda was . . .).

Do you have a source for this?

I'm not, by the way, arguing "for" something here. The two points you raise are interesting, though contradictory. In essence, Shioda received a scroll (which usually denotes being a student), but was refused as a student.

"Unfair to single out . . ." That would suggest I'm one-sided in my debunking of myths. Given that, at least in the English language, I was the first to write out Ueshiba Morihei as being involved, even supportive, of political terrorists, I cannot really be accused of being one-sided. Unless the "one side" I'm on is a suspicion of hagiography.

I wrote the essay and the one just published on Tohei because I'm intrigued by myth-making, and how they create "reality" on the ground. Just like I was very interested to take on the myth that Takeda Sokaku was of a certain nature, that he studied a secret art, etc., in HIPS. And how from another perspective, not only the myth, but reality itself changes slightly.

Anyway, I'd love to see the HIDEN article, and love to know more about the evidence of Shioda's petition.
Ellis Amdur
I"ll see if I can scan it. I"ll have to check the kanji with my wife, but it does seem like a honorary scroll, however, It's signed Horikawa kodo daito ryu aikido meijin.
I don't have a source for my third assertion that I can back up. I was originally reluctant to put it out publicly, but seeing as the other two assertions have been independently verified, I figured it at least bears consideration. I retain an open mind on it,(and what it might mean) in fact, it doesn't really matter to me one way or the other, so I'm just putting it out there.

Further on from your comments, I happen to agree. In fact, "understanding the myth" is vital in understanding the teachings of any traditional Japanese art, IMO.It's one of the things seriously missing when these arts make the transition to our culture. My personal take is that Shioda was attuned to "the myth/world view" from training under ueshiba, and it was this that helped make his meeting(s?) with horikawa so fruitful.

Additionally, Gadi Schor"s post about Shioda noticing the one day an uchi deshi didn't precisely align the slippers in the toilet reveals his almost uncanny level of perception. I believe that people of the calibre of Shioda and horikawa were really operating on a very refined plane. Information was being downloaded from the get go, so to speak, so Inoue sensei"s (whom I have huge respect for BTW) comments about their meeting can be perfectly true while at the same time leaving the canvas open to be filled in with more. Your previous story about encountering white crane kung fu people was similar perhaps., but imagine if you and they were so attuned to the nuances of how one should move and behave during a carefully choreographed meeting, which every gesture was packed with meaning.

As for hagiography and singling people out, I may be over-sensitive about this, but DR and its practicioners seems to come under a lot of criticism for being secretive, vague and downright dishonest, almost like its a characteristic of the Ryu.(I'm not accusing you of this). Some of these people are my friends and ani deshi. This may apply to some practicioners, but it hasn't been my experience, and through practice, I've discovered there are usually good reasons for some apparently strange behaviour. Anyway, my point was (in this instance at least) people making assertions about Shioda and horikawa could be given the benefit of the doubt. That still leaves plenty of myth making to be debunked!

Best Regards
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