Judo is not a ground fighting system to defeat a single attacker on the ground. It's about take downs and take down defense. Brazilian Ju Jitsu and Judo are both derived from Japanese Ju Jitsu, but they're only cousins.
A BJJ practitioner is going to have a very difficult time with a judoka, until the judoka gets a throw. If it's in an octagon or ring, the BJJ player pulls guard and works his game. If it's anywhere else, an ippon is probably a knockout or close to it.
Another notable difference is, judoka have to throw into a choke or hold almost immediately or the ref will stand them up. This is because on a battlefield, someone will come along and kick you in the head, etc. So you only get a few seconds to make a move.
BJJ players work a long game. Like wrestling an anaconda, you will succumb in the end if you fall into their grasp. The key is not to. You need good striking, good take down defense and you're right, Jonathan- you can surprise them with wrist locks if you are on the ground, but you have to immobilize them well- if they can squirm a little bit, they will wriggle out. Best take the opportunity to shoot your hips out and stand up, or land some crushing strikes- BJJ players do not like getting hit. Or have your friend kick them in the head, as you mentioned. That is their Achilles' heel.
Not true. I walked into Judo with no background, practiced for about 8 months, then entered my first tournament as a judo white belt with a BJJ purple belt and placed second in the black belt division. This was becoming more and more frequent with grapplers and bjjers obtaining judo membership, then entering the local tournaments. Not too long after that, there were rule changes implemented that discouraged many of the takedowns that are near and dear to my heart...effectively putting the balance back to traditional judoka.
The point is, that BJJers had no issues "doing well" against traditional judoka. In fact, we found they were equal if not more well rounded in competition. The BJJ mentality is "do it if it works, don't waste time if it doesn't". So, while BJJers may not have 5 technical variations of a hip throw...they have a go to one that they have found that works for them in most cases. Most have a paradigm of "study the rules, and exploit them to the maximum."
I can pull up Youtube videos over the last 30 years that show how well the legacy BJJers from Brazil faired against the top players in Judo. They BJJ culture simply see Judo as another venue for testing skill versus lets make rules that will maintain the status quo.
Agreed there are some differences in the tempo of ne waza. I personally think BJJers can learn alot from Judo ne waza. I just spent a week in Dakar, Senegal teaching at Judo schools to include their National Dojo. They wanted to learn how to improve their ne waza. I went over things in BJJ that work very well in Judo. You do not need to move right to a choke, but the fight needs to continue to move forward.
Personally this has never been an issue for me in a Judo tournament or practice. My ne waza far exceeds that of most Judoka, so if I get you on the ground in a judo tournament, the fight will end with a submission. I had no problem passing guard to side control, establishing kesa gatame, flipping to side control, going to mount and doing an arm bar or a choke. Smooth, linear and progressive, maybe 30 seconds to a minute on the ground. I was amazed that the judges gave as much latitude as they did! as long as I was advancing my cause...no issues with staying on the ground.
Other than that...I agree that BJJ has become a game on the ground and it is more like chess than combat in that respect. In my dojo I train the guys in many ways. I'm an advocate of standing the fight back up if they don't advance quick enough, but that causes problems too when the losing guy begins to learn to game the rules and can simply stall.
I am an advocate of introducing weapons at the 30 second mark or a second person during training, so the fight equalizes again if it becomes a slow hug fest.
Be careful with generalizations. Especially with BJJers. On the remarks about not liking to get hit.
You will find most guys that are purple belt or higher have been in the marital arts game a very long time. I'd say more than most martial arts we are very well rounded and most of us came from striking backgrounds, have done MMA or have been exposed to it.
I personally love hitting, and love for that element to be introduced into the equation. I am pretty good at it. I am pretty good at my ne waza. So if you introduce hitting, well I then become pretty damn good...so I personally enjoy the challenge it presents.
Sure, your generalizations might apply to newbs to bjj...that is white belts and blue belts. That is most peoples exposure to BJJ when there buddies take it up and then begin to show their budo buddies what they have learned, which while decent stuff, there games and experience certainly is not enough to represent what very experienced purple, brown, and black belts are doing at their level. Thus, we get the generalizations about what BJJ is and isn't.