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Old 05-05-2013, 10:39 PM   #50
Dojo: North Winnipeg Aikikai
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 265
Re: does nikyo hurt?

So lets start with assertions. I assert what I said to be true. So you can take it that I am saying that's the basic view to start from.
For you, perhaps, but the point of my questions was to highlight that you need a justification for why this should be the basic view from which you start.

You ask why painful nikkyo is bad nikkyo. Well very fundamentally pain is not good. So I ask you to look at pain. What is it?

Generally it is a flag, an indication something is not good. Be it a pain in the belly, head or wherever it is a flag telling you something is wrong, something needs addressing. If you are sawing a piece of wood and feel pain in your finger you stop for it tells you something is amiss. Carry on and you will maybe lose your finger. So there is the first piece of rationale. Pain equals something ain't good.
But this fact actually suggests that pain is valuable. Without pain one would be unaware that one was sawing off one's finger. If one did a lot of sawing of wood, one could, in the absence of the sensation of pain, potentially lose a lot of fingers! Pain, then, is a good thing since it tells us that something injurious is happening to us and we ought to act to prevent the injury from continuing.

In any case, you haven't yet established why pain in the application of the technique is bad. All you've done so far is explain the obvious: pain indicates that something injurious is occurring. I still don't see that when applying nikyo painfully to someone I do the lock badly. I want uke to understand as the lock is applied that "something ain't good" and that if he does not yield to the lock what "ain't good" is only going to get worse.

Now you no doubt have heard the expression no pain no gain which tends to glorify pain. Well rather that just jump to the conclusion that equals pain is good it is best to understand what that type of pain is. In body building or weight training it is muscle fibres being broken. So if you understand that then you can see the mechanism involved in increasing muscle mass 'quickly' and understand whay you will feel it.
So, you're saying here that the pain of intense physical exercise is not a bad thing because it yields increases in muscle mass and strength? But this implies that not all pain is bad, that pain actually may signal something ultimately positive is occurring. This doesn't seem to me to help establish your view that pain in nikyo is always a bad thing...

Next we come to an even more basic to do with pain albeit venturing into the spiritual to a degree. Pain is resistance. This is also more pertinent to the best understanding of what I said above and also to the art of Aikido itself for those who take it seriously in my opinion.
This is rather confusing. Are you saying "Pain is resistance" is a spiritual truth? If so, how, exactly?

And why should Aikido be a spiritual endeavour? Why is this the view of those who are "taking it seriously"? My late shihan took his Aikido very seriously but I never once in the twenty-some years I knew him ever heard him speak of the spirituality of Aikido. I don't, then, see that serious Aikido must be spiritual.

So non resistance leads to no pain.
But this is precisely why pain in nikyo is useful: it encourages non-resistance on the part of uke.

So, once discovering how non resistance handles pain one can then see that this strange thing called non resistance should be practiced at both ends ie: by the uke and by the nage. A nikkyo done with non resistance therefor gives no pain.
I'm afraid you aren't making much sense here. You say that pain is important in discovering how not to resist but this means one must receive pain in order to make such a discovery. But in the context of Aikido training this suggests that Aikido technique ought to be painful so that uke might learn non-resistance. You've said, though, that painful technique is not good technique. Why then should nage perform painful technique on uke? Doing so, in your view, is to practice bad technique. Do you see the glaring problem in this? I do.

You haven't offered any explanation for how discovering non-resistance through pain leads to the understanding that non-resistance should be practiced by both uke and nage. If non-resistance is related to experiencing pain, are you saying nage should be in pain while practicing technique? Surely not. But this is the impression your words are giving.

Your rationale above seems to be:

1. Experiencing pain leads to an understanding of non-resistance.
2. Understanding non-resistance leads to understanding that both uke and nage should practice non-resistance.
3. Therefore, nikyo should not be applied painfully.

This is a glaring non-sequitur. Your conclusion does not clearly issue from your premises.

So my rationale says that given non resistance is fundamental to Aikido and it gives no pain then those techniques done which include it are good and those without it are not.
But you haven't yet given a reasonable justification for making it a given that "non-resistance is fundamental to Aikido." All you've said is that experiencing pain leads to understanding non-resistance, not why this understanding is "fundamental to Aikido."

Therefor you can have a painful full blown 'inescapable' nikkyo done to you and believe it's good but I say it cannot be. Effective.... yes, if you don't know how to non resist it.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion - however unjustified it may be...

I would be very interested in applying my nikyo to you and seeing just how well your non-resistance voids it.

Non resistance is a hard (soft ha, ha) thing to learn but is very real and part of this fine art. I would say it's good to learn it and bad not to, it's good to practice it and bad not to.
I agree. But I don't get the sense that you've thought very carefully through your views, which makes me very skeptical about your understanding of non-resistance.



Last edited by Jonathan : 05-05-2013 at 10:47 PM.

"Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."
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