JW

"We used to do it that way, but we haven't for some time.. let me show you what really works!"

"Ouch, but you'll never achieve that in real life."

i am excited to read Cliff's description of Ellis' description. I feel similarly-- in nikkyo you subsume uke from above. That doesn't require pain, but it should be physically compelling in some way. Pain is just a "cheap" way to make it compelling.
I've had teachers openly state they are trying to have it not hurt. But I've never had teachers say pain = wrong.

Also, I think it generally should hurt if uke is fighting it-- but tori can try to diffuse the fight instead of letting uke hurt himself.