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Old 02-02-2013, 11:34 AM   #27
Dojo: Aunkai
Location: Fairfax, VA
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 429
Re: experiences in applying a float to waza?

Chris Hein wrote: View Post
So the force is lower, correct, because it's coming from underneath.

I see a follow up to this being- the force is lower, but I am not. So my follow up question would be, what is making the force if you are not?? In order for the force to be lower (which it has to be if it's underneath) you must be lower, because you are making the force. I know you imagine bouncing the force, or the force coming from the ground up, but it's not really doing that, it's an image.
In your table example, how is there not an equal upwards force from the members of the table, under compression which handles the added weight of the book? Of course depending on the material, under compression, you will see a flexing of some kind. This flexing does allow for storage, much the same as a bowstring and a bow under compression (remember Hooke's law from school?), and is the foundation for the concept of store and release, but thats beyond our current discussion. You could imagine that if you could then shift that incoming load somewhere else, that the stored energy would be output (this is part of what Ark is doing in his explosive version of kokyu ho, rather than just pushing back explosively, the two don't look the same).

Now instead of allowing my body to deform, as it will under sufficient pressure, I direct that input into the front leg, through organizing my body via intent. Intent results in some sort of shift within the body, or activation of different muscular components, though it should be the lower torso which causes this to occur. The same input is received into my body, just the resultant vector has changed.

This isn't just imagery, if ones partner pops up on their heels, and feels no force on force component. For a very muscly example, with your arm bent 90 degrees receive a light push. Direct it through the bicep, then direct it through the tricep. Don't push back with it, just feel it directed one way or the other. If you can do both, then you should have some understanding of intent, and be able to do the same in the lower body with or without an additional load placed on you.

Like I state earlier, anyone studying internals should be able to demonstrate this relatively early on in their study. If you can't, one should express some concern. Speaking of which, I failed to do so at a seminar when Mike Sigman asked me to float him, which can tell you where I was at the time i had met him. Mike then showed everyone how to do it after that.

What is really happening is that you are pushing from a lower point then they are stopping the push from. That's how you "get lower than them without getting lower than them". You push from your legs (which is very low) into their higher parts, as I said it's usually the shoulder when I do it. You don't have to drop your hips.
I actually do not advocate doing this, which I will explain after the next quote.

Now what makes this hard, is when the other person knows you are doing this, and they start resisting the push from lower spots, and start working to keep you from getting into pushing high spots on them. Then when two people are skilled at this, they start dropping there hips, so they can gain advantage.

They don't drop their hips because they are ignorant of body use, quite the opposite, they are working against another skilled person who is keeping them from wedging them up- or "floating" them.
I used to think this too, did the same, and saw others who work on the Aunkai method do the same. If you know how to push back with your hips, then I can source from the quads, then you source from the calf (source meaning resist or push back with), then I source from the ankles, then you source form the toes and I loose. If we both can push back at each other from the toes, then neither of us can win by pushing from a lower point than the other. Usually what happens then is both partners will drop their hips progressively lower than one another.

Then Alex Lee said to me, well you can't source (push from or resist with) power lower than the bottom of the feet now can you? Instead whoever can direct more of their weight and their opponents weigh+input force into the ground with cause the other person to move. This is Newton's Third Law in action. Thus IS becomes of study of this particular element as a foundational element, upon which you build many other things.

I will also note, that Sigman's blog says the same thing, that many people think that by sourcing power from a lower point than the other person they are thus doing IS. I now agree with Mike. By pushing back from a lower point, you aren't letting that force go into you and reflect off the ground. When looking at trying to maximize that combined force/weight to have it go into the ground and reflect back, one should realize that pushing back, even at a lower point, reduces the amount going into the ground.

I don't call that Aiki, because I believe Aiki is the ability to understand the mind and intention of your attacker, then blend accordingly. I know other people have other definitions, and that's cool.
Thats fine, we can agree to disagree here. I tend to think my explanation makes a bit more sense when you get to topics like mushin, as you don't think. Rather, the body simply redirects the energy to create waza (freeform), which seems to make sense in light of the founder's comments rather than relying on knowledge of a set form of waza.

If you don't find a sticking point, you don't have access to the connected support structures. If they don't lock them selves and you can't lock something out there is no path to the center. This might mean going all the way to the end of range of motion, but you must find this spot, or only the limb you are moving, will move.
You would certainly agree that if I exert a force on a limp arm, that eventually it will extend to a point where there is sufficient tension conveyed into the limb and into the body which will eventually cause the person to move.

None the less, if the person is holding on to you, even if their arm feels there will be a tension to some degree. This can be used as they will need to maintain their grip.

How are you directing the force "someone gave you"? You have to use muscle to do that right? If the only thing that moves your body is muscle, and there is force coming in, you must use something to direct that force.

If you are relying on muscle to hold you up. And relying on muscle to redirect the force (what someone gave you). Are you using besides muscle? It sounds to me like you're relying on muscle...
If I use the lower torso/hip/inner thigh to direct a force, then sure, I'm using muscle to some degree, but it does not mean that you are pushing back with it.
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