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Old 02-01-2013, 12:04 PM   #25
HL1978
Dojo: Aunkai
Location: Fairfax, VA
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 415
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Re: experiences in applying a float to waza?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
How are you under someone without being physically lower then them? If you're not physically lower then someone you can't be under them. You could be next to them, or over them, but not under them. The word 'under' denotes being lower, specifically lower with them over you- under. I don't understand how you can do other wise. It might not seem like you are lower then them, but if you are under them, you have to be lower then they are. If not, we shouldn't say that we are under them.
Being under someone is a common term when discussing internals. Its internal 101 really, and discussed pretty early on in most of the IS seminars I have attended. If one has IS experience, they should know what exactly it is a reference too.

For the clarification for those new to the subject, it refers to a force coming up from underneath the other person, and is typically used in reference various phenomena which can result such as floating etc. If we go purely by physical stature or utilizing structure, then I can never physically get under a 4'9" woman without physically dropping my body lower than hers. That is to say given conventional usage of the body, I could never overcome her innate advantage of having her hips lower to the ground, all other things being equal such as technique, timing, power and equal weight/muscle mass.

Luckily, for me you can get under someone and there are multiple other ways of doing it. You can try and source power from a point lower than them (this only works against less skilled person), but that fails when you realize you can't get any lower than the feet (and its not really internal). The better way is to integrate your weight with the other person and their input force (and add to it rather than go against it), cause it to reflect off the ground ala Newton's 3rd law. The resultant force comes from underneath the other person, not requiring your hips to be lower than theirs. Thus you are under them. You need to be "under" yourself too, to make that work, but that idea will probably confuse too many people right now.

Quote:
I don't think that is what is happening. You are driving low, and whether you realize it or not, if they are not also driving down, you will find a spot where you are under them. I often find this spot in the shoulders, sometimes it's in their elbows or even in their wrists. This point will be a point they don't want to move (it's a sticking point). If you push into that point where they are locked up, like a wedge, you will drive them up. Once that part moves up, their center will move up also, then you can drive them away. Your physical body wont drop, theirs will raise. I wouldn't call this aiki, but I understand why some would.
Could you clarify why you don't see this as aiki? There is a mixing of your weight/energy and your opponents which you put back on out into your opponent.

If you do the simple exercise I'm referring to, you won't feel a lock up point, though it certainly may be visible. You shouldn't feel any resistance of any kind.

Quote:
If you don't find a "sticking point" why do they move? If there was not a point where they were locked up, their arms would just move and their body would be unaffected. It's only when you find this sticking point, the part where moving their hands moves their body, and get under that sticking point that you can actually move them away from you.
You don't need to find a sticking point, though it is certainly helpful and your partner's movement is certainly far more dramatic. Of course with a more and more experienced person, they won't present such a point or at least far less often and without being a limp noodle. What you really need to do, is bring that energy/force to the point of contact that they have maintained with you. You will still get movement, even if the other person is like a limp noodle as that limb is still connected through the support structures of the body to the torso.

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I can't see how something could not be a "muscle based thing". If it's not muscle making the motion happen, what is making it happen?
If I only use what you give me, and only use whatever muscle I need to hold myself up, I'm not relying on muscular power. Rather, I would be relying on your muscular power. Remember this drawing?

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/attach...8&d=1359493547

The blue line is the input force from your partner, and the purple force (in reality, it more or less follows both the blue and red lines back up as some goes into the rear foot) is what pushes back up on an angle. The internal way to do kokyu-ho/dosa relies much more on this than the elbow example I gave. Your arms will extend forwards, not to push your partner, but rather to maintain the connection with the partner. If you start to push with them to add to it, the resultant force winds up being less.
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