Thread: Vantage points
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:01 PM   #243
Mert Gambito
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 191
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
What I'm saying is, how do you know that? What logical evidence, beyond Dan himself, can do some impressive things- tells you that you are going to be able to do what Dan can do by studying with him.
Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
It's hard to not sound like a jerk when I say what I'm about to say. But stories are stories. I'm not saying that anyone is lying, or trying to trick anyone, but you can't tell much from stories.
The personal experiences I related --- as an individual testing IP/IS against a control (i.e. an uke unfamiliar with the IP/IS training who had plenty of past experience training with me to establish a baseline reference prior to pushing on me last month), and as someone who is having increasing difficulty using straight muscle power or IP to induce kuzushi in all those I regularly train with in Hawaii -- are completely valid for the purposes of logical evidence: for me and for the person serving as the control.

You'll simply have to go gather your own evidence to satisfy your own curiosity and skepticism, as I and many others have done in the past.*

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
So the "duel opposing spirals" are muscular connections inside of the body, and Dans method, is a way of using these muscular groups.

See that sounds simple to me. And I've never seen anyone else lay that out. At least not in a discussion with me.
Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
If "The duel opposing spirals are muscular pairs in the body, that can be used to great effect" is not correct, then we should fix that now
To fix it, please go back to what I originally wrote. As Gary and David have cautioned, you have oversimplified the simplified explanation -- in fact, changed it -- to the point your summary is fundamentally inaccurate.

This is one of several AikiWeb threads discussing the trains as spirals and what they anatomically contain; and there are many posts throughout AikiWeb in which Dan and others discuss how developing these trains/spirals across the body is vital to developing IP/IS:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20239
.

Dual opposing spirals in motion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gj6UaEay5Lg (I don't know if a link to this particular video has been posted on AikiWeb before, but others demonstrating spiraling movement / expression have been).

Quote:
Cool. Thanks, we can now start to work with this.
Truly, this is the precipice where further online discussion will just generate further errors in interpretation; and that would be a dis-service to you, and others on the fence who feel they're getting the gist.

It's really this simple and sobering: modern Aikido and modern karate, for example, are more similar to one another than the IP/IS-dedicated training methodologies (as a group of systems) are to modern Aikido (despite Dan's approach's extreme compatibility with Aikido due to the Daito-ryu connection). I would never recommend a karateka, of any level of experience, try to learn Aikido from online forums and video clips, nor vice versa. If, say, a Shotokan karateka I know who lives in Fresno wanted to learn Aikido, would I be better off referring him/her to AikiWeb and YouTube, then encouraging them to start practicing tobi ukemi -- or would it be infinitely preferable to refer this person to you after he/she had done online research?

* So, if you want to finish connecting the dots re: IP/IS, go learn from an appropriate teacher. Notice, I didn't say go kicking tires for a few minutes or a couple hours: my specific recommendation to you is to attend an entire ILC seminar with Sam Chin. He'll likely spend most of the first half of the first day of an introductory seminar going over ILC's IP/IS theory (which should dovetail to a comfortable degree with your ICMA knowledge), then have attendees systematically apply that theory via solo and paired training. Along the way, you'll have plenty of opportunities for hands-on time with him, and he is extremely patient with newbies. He also explains how his system is applicable to different "faces"/"masks"/systems of the martial arts, including Aikido. ILC is so elegantly systematic, and Sam is such a fine communicator (despite English not being his first language), that I feel you, and anyone else looking for a well-packaged end-to-end (i.e. theory to self development to free-form application) intro to dedicated IP/IS training, would be best served going this route.

Last edited by Mert Gambito : 01-06-2013 at 02:11 PM.

Mert
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