Why do you have to be so stubborn? Some people teach the principles (the so called heart of a system) of a given system, and explore those principles in frameworks (of which are formed through historical and cultural context--which is why some people have to go OUTSIDE of the box because often times the framework is not suited for newer demands/challenges in martial movement) that traditional systems do not provide. Doing this does not necessarily mean that the person is negating or denying the validity of the traditional system--how could he if he is using principles that were derived from the traditional system? There need not be a disconnect in your mind--a person can be teaching Ueshiba and Takeda's aiki, and learned the validity and power of it through freestyle sparring with competent fighters, weapons with competent people that can handle weapons, grappling with trained wrestlers--i.e., frameworks that traditional systems do not offer.
Do you also not understand the notion of innovation? It happens all the time--in technology, in pedagogy, in learning methods, in business management, and in...yes...you guessed it, bujutsu. Would you consider that perhaps some people are teaching the same AIKI that ueshiba and takeda taught but finding ways to streamline their methods so that that acquisition and transmission of skill become more efficient? Can you accept these states of affairs?
I don't think you are having a discussion that will move forward. Case in point:
Chris Hein wrote:
So you spend lot's of time learning what Dan is teaching you to do, but that's not actually what gives Dan his special ability. You end up wasting lot's of time, doing something that wasn't actually what gave Dan his ability.'
I think this summarizes what Chris really thinks. What is he saying?
1. Either I'm stupid and don't know what I'm doing
2. People who train with me are stupid and can't tell the difference.
3. It makes a statement that I have not produced anyone with power and to train with me is a waste of time.
BASED ON WHAT?
It is in direct contrast to what everyone has said who did come train isn't it. It is contrary to people feeling the difference themselves and also having felt some of my long terms guys- who some have said are as good as me.
So...in keeping with the OP (my thread) I asked people to address
Can we acknowledge the forward progression of IP discussions on the web? How did these discussions start many years ago. It started with those doing IP/aiki being openly derided for stating that this work is different and is the foundation of aikido.
Every....single....Aikido teacher who went to test....failed.
To my knowledge just about every, single, Aikido teacher who went...switched.
Why isn't that mentioned?
1. What does it mean, that this has and is... taking place over and over again?
2. What does it mean that it is routinely ignored in the discussion?
These are some pretty serious questions to ask, given that the success rates we are seeing are the result of OUR high standards and hard work.
I think we should begin by talking about those results and why hundreds of teachers (many who are members here who were openly against this) would switch their entire practice to include this. Isn't that a better tact then insinuating all sorts of negative motivations?
....I at least hope that as a discussion it can include a discussion...of those successes not a discussion of the discussion.
Referring to the last line..Has that actually happened? Other than one person..who if you will note chose to make a shining example of all of one Aikido teacher (hint...its all agenda all the time) Nope. Want to know why? They can't discuss it. To do so would be to have to acknowledge that
a. We stepped up. We had fabulous success.
b. It forced a change in those who came
c. It did so because......we were right
Chris Denies any forward progress, denies the public record and testimonies given here and essentially states we now
have to prove what we have been talking about.Now?...NOW?
In one fell swoop it is not only off topic,,, but it does exactly what I said people would do. Why? Because there really is nothing to say in counter is there?
So here we are....years in and thousands of people later with various IP guys and Aikido teachers and it's as if we went back in time, with someone who has been here all along.
So, do you really think you are having a discussion that is even remotely productive?